Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
No that I agree with you on. You have exhibited very little knowledge of scripture and have posted very little scripture to back up what you say. I specifically asked for scripture reference and what do I get. A snide remark about “impossible to converse”. No scripture reference as I asked mind you only the snide remark. Scripture reference for what you said? NONE.
>>Understanding of the Revelation is dependent on understanding Yehova’s calendar, and his feasts. those are the foundation of understanding.<<
No, the rest of prophesy recorded in scripture is needed to understand Revelation. THOSE are the foundation of understanding along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Your date setting is totally against scripture.
>>The days between are when Satan’s armies are vanquished.<<
You think it takes “days” for Christ to defeat those armies? Guess again.
Now, how about the scripture that shows the "two sabbaths apart"?
Our position will be in the New Heaven/New Earth when the old Earth and heavens are burned up.
We do have a purpose in the interim, and that purpose is back on Earth.
Cynical Bear is not making fruit salad. Cynical Bear understands clearly God’s word. Don’t start with the precious snide remarks. It doesn’t befit you. Scriptural debate can be hardcore sometimes. But wrestling in the mud just makes us pigs. :)
WRONG. And I could show you that. But it entails RIGHTLY DIVIDING God’s word of truth. And I KNOW you’re not interested.
It is yourself that has zero understanding of the scriptures.
You have no understanding of the feasts, or the calendar, judging by your posts here, and you reject the plain scriptures WRT the resurrection, and replace them with vapor.
You want to be let out of all that Yehova has declared, and yet enjoy the pleasantries of the heaven that you have created, not the one that Yehova has.
That’s rather audacious. You don’t supply scripture that I ask for but then ask me to support with scripture? It’s the Jews who repopulate the earth. Current believers were raptured prior to the seven year tribulation, believers who didn’t take the mark of the beast during the tribulation were killed, and those who did take the mark of the beast were killed by Christ at Armageddon as I showed from scripture in my last post.
>> How have you determined who is evil, and how does that relate to your plan?<<
From scripture. Those who took the mark of the beast are evil and killed by Christ, those who did not take the mark were killed by the anti Christ.
Oh, and if you’re going to continue with the “fruit salad” type snide this conversation will cease.
After beating the swords into plow shares we would get those white robes dirty! :-(
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things TO COME; but the body IS of Christ." (Col. 2:16,17).
Did you get that? Paul wrote it. Through the Holy Spirit. It is part of "But Now" that the Body of Christ is in, right now. Of course, it always helps to rightly divide God's word of truth. Just so you don't get confused with which program you're in right now..
>> You have no understanding of the feasts, or the calendar<<
I know them and understand them. I know the Jewish at least as it is today. I also understand that past prophesy has been connected to feast days. What you don’t seem to get is that there were many trumpets sounded in Israel that had nothing to do with feast days. And setting dates for what Jesus said “no man knows the day or the hour” is something you need to think about.
That should read “Jewish calendar”
>> “Let me ask you something, editor. IF we, the Body of Christ, are not Israel, why would we have need of “feasts, or calendars? All things meant for Israel. How do I KNOW that we have no need for these things?” <<
.
That is a question out of abundant rejection of Yehova’s word. The feasts are commanded for the entire world, not for Israel. They have been celebrated since the days of Adam.
They are primarily for us. The spring feasts heralded the first coming of Yeshua, and the fall feasts herald our Resurrection, at Yom Teruah, Our living with Yeshua on out return to Earth with him in the Millennium, at Sukkot, and our new beginning in the new heaven and new Earth, at “The Last Great Day.”
If you wish to avoid those appointments with Yehova, I know that he will accommodate you, but why would you?
Your quote from Paul shows your lack of comprehension of the scriptures. He wrote that is support of holding fast to the Lord’s feasts and sabbaths, why would you try to turn it against his purpose?
You just proved that you have no understanding.
The trumpets declared in prophecy are a well documented pattern, that you do not understand so you dismiss them with ignorant hand waving. There is zero ceremonial use of the shofar outside of the specific blasts that were given at Sinai, and are carried on today. That pattern is to continue until all things are accomplished, and we reside in the “new Jerusalem.”
That is what yeshua said at the beginning of his ministry.
Still………..no………scripture……..for the question I asked. Unless you can show scriptural support for your positions editor this conversation is not going anywhere. Let’s see the scripture that supports your beliefs. If you can’t do that perhaps a web site that explains it from scripture.
.
I've set no date. Your reading is lacking.
1Thes.5
[1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
[6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night
Why will that day not overtake the Thessalonians as a thief? And more to the point, why would you not wish to share in the same knowledge that keeps them in the light?
The familiar "no man knoweth the day or the hour" refers to the fact that the beginning of the month is defined by the first sighting of the new moon, which was not predictible for several reasons, one of which was the weather in Jerusalem, and Yom Teruah is the only feast that begins with the new moon. The unpredictability actually remains today, in spite of our prowess with computers.
Had you ever read the scriptures you would know exactly where the feasts are defined, and how they are observed.
I did post the passage in 1Thessalonians that declares that their knowledge of the feasts is why they will not be overtaken by the resurrection like a thief.
Oh, and How about that scripture that tells us about your imaginary pre-trib rapture? You have not revealed it to us yet.
Yeah, my reading is lacking. You use 1Thes.5 to counter my quote of “no one knows the day or the hour” but you try to imply that we should? You do realize that Jesus was saying even He didn’t know. But still here you are claiming it will fall on one of the known feast days of the Jews. And you say my reading is lacking? Perhaps you need to begin to read scripture rather than whatever you are getting those beliefs from. I’ll give you a hint to start. 1 Thes. 5 was talking about the beginning of the tribulation which will be preceded by the rapture of the church. It’s Israel that will think they will be living in “peace and safety”.
Lev.23
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
[3] Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
[4] These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
[5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’s passover.
[6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
[7] In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
[8] But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
[9] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[10] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
[11] And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
[12] And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
[13] And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
[14] And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
[15] And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
[16] Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
[17] Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
[18] And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
[19] Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
[20] And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
[21] And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
[22] And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.
[23] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[24] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
[25] Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
[26] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[27] Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
[28] And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
[29] For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
[30] And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
[31] Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
[32] It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
[33] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[34] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.
[35] On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
[36] Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.
[37] These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
[38] Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
[39] Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
[40] And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
[41] And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
[42] Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
[43] That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
[44] And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.
>> “You do realize that Jesus was saying even He didn’t know.” <<
.
That was mostly cultural tradition. The reason that someone on Earth couldn’t know for sure was that it could be clouded at sunset, so the new month couldn’t be declared under that circumstance.
And 1Tessalonians was not speaking about the trib, but the Resurrextion. There is no reason no matter how far fetched, to think it had anything to do with the beginning of the trib, since that is defined by the abomination.
>> “But still here you are claiming it will fall on one of the known feast days of the Jews. And you say my reading is lacking?” <<
Absolutely! The feast Yom Teruah can only be defined by the sighting of the new moon, and if it is cloudy at sunset there is no moon.
The new moon is always difficult to see, partly because it appears in different positions each month.
Get educated.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
If you were familiar with the trumpets that sounded to tell the Israelites to move you would understand what that last trump means. When the Israelites were to move there were a series of trumpets blown. Each time one was blown a tribe would be told to move. The last trump was blown when the North tribe of Israelites, which was the last to move, was to move out. All this can be found in Numbers 10. That was Paul’s reference in 1st Corinthians 15. That was written around 59AD which was 37 years before the vision and writing of Revelation in 96AD.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
There are many others.
I’m not the one rejecting God’s word for today, for the Church the BOdy of Christ. YOU are. The Scriptures are plain, easy, and comprehensible to anyone who is saved, even a babe in Christ. You reject His timeline at your own choice. I didn’t write it. He did.
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