Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
Excellent! I fear there will be a disconnect however since I believe that Editor is getting his information from something other than scripture and simply applies that information to scripture attempting to make it make sense.
That book explains only its author’s confusion.
The resurrection is what ends the trib by allowing the angels to pour out the wrath on Satan’s armies.
>> “Excellent! I fear there will be a disconnect however since I believe that Editor is getting his information from something other than scripture” <<
.
I cannot imagine what would lead you that far from reality.
Everything I have posted is directly from the scriptures.
Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree. More important is that He is coming...period.
Btw, who is to say that you might not be the confused one? How can you make a pronouncement on a book you have not even read?
Thinking that faithful followers of Christ will experience the wrath of God certainly would cause one to not be at peace. But we were promised that He would rescue us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
How then can someone deny the words of the Holy Spirit and say “But the scriptures say that the rapture is after the tribulation, at the last trump”? Christ says we will be rescued from the wrath to come and a man says we will experience the wrath to come and not be taken out until after the wrath.
I’ll take Christ at His word.
No one is marked against their will.
Oh good grief. So you’re saying that only the evil live to go through the millennium? Surely you can’t be saying that.
It is His time of dealing with Israel and that is why the church is no longer around.
I believe they do not understand that the Tribulation is for the purpose of having Israel finally turn to Jesus.
They see it as His dealing with all mankind, but it is specifically for Israel.
I think you need to go study how many times the trumpet was sounded in Israel life. Most everything they did was heraled by a trumpet. You’ve gotten stuck on those trumpets thinking they are tied to feast days. They are not.
No they haven’t and the scriptures you did post have been taken out of context with the rest of scripture.
Correct. The seven years of the tribulation are the last seven years of the 490 allocated to Israel as seen in Daniel. It’s to make an end to sin and bring Israel back to God. The church has been taken out and God deals with unbelievers as a way to get Israel to turn to Him.
Scripture reference please.
Why don’t you read what I posted?
If by “the evil,” you mean the survivors, you’re half right.
Yeshua’s sheep return with him to the Earth for 1000 years.
It is impossible to converse on Biblical issues if one is Biblically illiterate.
Understanding of the Revelation is dependent on understanding Yehova’s calendar, and his feasts. those are the foundation of understanding.
The first day of the seventh month is Yom Teruah. That is the calendar day on which the First Resurrection occurs (these dates are FOB Jerusalem) The fifteenth day of the seventh month is Sukkot. That is the day that Yeshua returns to the Earth with his sheep. The days between are when Satan’s armies are vanquished. This of course leaves a question of the length of the wrath (is it 15 days, or a year and 15 days?) I’ve never seen that question dealt with.
I cannot make you see something you refuse to see. No, I don’t have a roster. But God does. And I will continue in peace, having that blessed hope, and knowing that God keeps His word. You will continue to wrangle Scripture, seeing things that don’t exist, and trying to coincide things that are different FOR A REASON. The meat of God’s word, meant to make you grow up into a man instead of a child, taking only the milk of Scripture, is there, in plain view. Sometimes, we need to let go of our previous views, and get in to God’s word ALONE. Let God’s word speak to you. He will NEVER lead you astray. He made His timeline for mankind and gave it to us FOR A REASON.
Anytime you see the word "NOW" in Paul's writings, he is talking about the "BUT NOW" that the Body of Christ is living in. When you see "TO COME" that is when "BUT NOW" has ended. HOW did it end? Paul tells us. We will meet the Lord in the air. The rapture.
It's SO EASY to get...and SO HARD to get...
They will return to rule. Not to repopulate the earth and all the non believers, those who took the mark of the beast are killed prior to the millennium.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Yet you claim they will live into the millennium and the believers will be rapture, given new bodies but will return to live mortal lives during the millennium. You beliefs are totally out of line with what scripture clearly teaches.
*sigh*
Are you making fruit salad?
Your replies never relate to my posts for some reason.
Please give you scriptural source for the plan you have to repopulate the Earth.
Who is in and who is out?
How have you determined who is evil, and how does that relate to your plan?
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