End of Cultural Christianity in America Is Opportunity for Church to Recover the Cross

Well, after reading that article you sent, I can’t say I agree with you about his goal being to liberalize the SBC - at least not from this one article. There does exist social injustice in the world, and it is right for the church to take a stance on it from a moral and ethical point. The churches should really be the ones to be reaching out to the community to give aid where it is needed, which is how hospitals got started, as well as the nursing profession. If the churches would take this stuff on, there would be less demand for the government to do so - at least to some degree. And the racial divide in America is certainly an issue the church should be concerned with. I disagree with what is being touted as “truth” that all whites are all equally guilty. History has been terribly distorted to the point that no one talks about the white slaves that also existed at that time and still do exist in the world - and have existed for centuries. No one talks about how it was Muslims and black Africans who sold their own fellow black Africans into slavery - and are still doing so today. And my family wasn’t even here in the U.S. back when blacks were slaves in the U.S. We were still Europeans then. And on top of that, no one mentions that there were black U.S. citizens who owned black slaves back in that time of our history. Also, not all slaves were poorly treated at all. And another issues is that it was a very, very small percentage of people who owned slaves. Many whites helped slaves to escape, too. No one talks much about that. So, I’m “hip” into the lies that are taught as truth in our history these days. But that doesn’t absolve this nation of its history of slavery and the oppression and holding down of the black community that has continued in this nation. The lies that the Democratic party have been their rescuers, when it was actually the Republican party that advocated and fought hard for slaves’ rights is also not taught and should be. But as a nation, we still do hold some guilt regarding the whole racial divide that has totally gone ballistic in our day. As a church, I believe it is the right thing for white Christians to step up and take a hard look at where we have failed our black brothers and sisters. I’m currently down here in the South where, myself a Southerner, I still see racism alive and well and out in the open. It’s totally understandable to me how blacks can feel that not much has changed. What I see is that Mr. Moore is advocating that we be honest with ourselves, and take the hard look at the failings of the church overall, in our culture. Certainly, blacks have their own share of blame and guilt - and this isn’t being looked at or talked about or considered. And we’re considered racist if we suggest that we each have blame. But we can’t just sit back and point the finger all the time, telling the other side that they need to quit pointing the finger at us. We each need to take a hard look inside. If some won’t do it, I think God will expects us to do our part. Social justice issues, just because they are paraded by the Left doesn’t mean that they are only an issue for the Left’s platform. They need to be our issue to. We just need to address them from a Christ-centered approach as a church, not necessarily through politics. If the church would address these issues seriously, and if we’d pray and get on our faces before God and ask Him to deal with us ourselves - and if we’d be willing to let Him show us what He actually sees wrong in us, and if we’d humble ourselves and “man-up” and follow His leading, so much of this social justice stuff - at least inside the church - would be dealt with. Maybe things wouldn’t improve in racial relations for the world at large, but at least in the church, we’d be united in brotherly love and be able to witness to the world as one body of Christ - showing that God can heal racial relations and bring together those formerly at odds with one another. This is what I think Mr. Moore is trying to convey. And that is my opinion. I’d have to do more research on this guy to see if there’s anything like what you’re saying about him. But just from this article, I see a person who’s admitting that social justice is a responsibility of the church. And I agree with him on that, at least. We have to stop seeing this stuff as only a Left issue. It isn’t. The Left just has the wrong answers and the wrong approaches to these problems. And the Left is actually making those issues worse. I also believe the Left is doing it on purpose, all while trying to convince their own voters that they really care. We know better. So, we should be taking these issues up because with Christ, we really do have the solution. It should be our business. We need our non-white brothers and sisters. And they need us. God wants us all to be one in Him. I’m sure you get what I’m trying to say. I could be wrong, but this is what I think Mr. Moore is trying to say in this article. I’ll have to do more research on him to see if that’s been true of him up till this point.

Shery, I’m sure you made many great points in your reply, but my eyes are unable to follow them due to the single spacing and no paragraph breaks.

I believe the statements Mr. Moore made about George Zimmerman were made before the trial verdict. As such, he made an assumption of Zimmerman’s guilt and called him a vigilante. That speaks volumes to me about where the man gets his news, and it isn’t The Conservative Treehouse or FreeRepublic.

He assumed that Mr. Zimmerman’s life was worth less than Trayvon Martin’s. He determined, due to the low information, politically correct news sources he uses, that GZ was guilty. Before the man had his day in court.

He presents himself as a conservative ethicist. White guilt is a very powerful thing in this country, and there are many people, both in the North and in the South who would sacrifice anyone of us on that altar. He doesn’t speak for me.

All who the Father calls will come. The church is no different now then at any other time in history. While the church may grow or shrink, face blessing or persecution, we can rest assured that God has a purpose and plan for everything.

But I do think the evidence points to the return of Christ. This isn’t a pessimistic view. It’s just a realistic interpretation of biblical history and comparing scriptural events (not prophecy) to events surrounding us. And while I don’t wish to sound gloomy or dampen missions and outreach efforts, times are admittedly growing darker. The sooner we wake up to this fact, the more we find our satisfaction in Christ, not the things of this world.

Ya know Harley, I used to look at our Dispy friends fixation on Jesus coming the day after tomorrow and chortle.

I’ve always been of the thought that we have been living in the end times since Jesus ascended. Now I am beginning to think we we are LIVING IN THE END TIMES.

Come Lord Jesus.

They are the chosen people.

Now I am beginning to think we we are LIVING IN THE END TIMES. Come Lord Jesus.

Amen.

I do not know enough about this speaker to evaluate him or his views.

I do, however, believe there is a certain type of cultural defeatism which is gaining ground in both broadly evangelical and confessionally Reformed circles.

The speaker may not hold that view. I don't know.

What I do know is that when a culture which once accepted Christian values, though often for secular reasons, makes a massive shift to the point that it openly embraces wickedness, things have not improved.

There are good secular reasons to support marriage, thrift, work ethics, sexual morality, and other cultural manifestations of Christian ethics.

A culture which throws those values away will rapidly move from tolerating Christians as a minority faith to openly despising and attacking Christians for being “intolerant” or otherwise rejecting the new anti-Christian secular ethics.

Such a culture also will not last very long. It will either wither into irrelevance or be replaced by some sort of secular or non-Christian faith which aggressively advocates its own version of cultural conservatism.

I freely grant that there are secular systems and non-Christian faiths which can work to one degree or another in building a culture on a different foundation. Islam, as bad as it is, did successfully build a culture. Similar things could be said for the role of Confucian ethics in Asia. Of course, those systems have horrible problems because they are built on the wrong foundation, but at least they are founded on something.

The moral relativism which is inherent in liberalism is not in that category. Put bluntly, liberalism doesn't work. It is an acid which destroys culture, not a system of beliefs which provide a foundation for culture.

I fear we are going to learn that the hard way.

“What I do know is that when a culture which once accepted Christian values, though often for secular reasons, makes a massive shift to the point that it openly embraces wickedness, things have not improved.”

Yes, but God always builds his victories on the rubble of human failure and defeat.

There is nothing so clear to me in being a Reformer than in understanding that Israel in the wilderness was a type for the church. Around us are all sort of fortified cities, strongholds, and menacing giants. We look at our living conditions and we would like quail instead of the bread of the angels or the nourishing water God has given us. False prophets exist like Balaam to turn our attention away. All the while on our journey God calls this person or that person to come join the walk. When God wants us to attack, He gives us the victory. When we try attacking without His provision, we fail. Sometimes our victories are easy. Sometimes difficult. But we learn lessons from them. He doesn't promise us wealth and happiness but neither does our clothing wear out. Instead He promises us a journey together with Him. We live by His grace and under His care as we walk this path with Him leading the way.

Psa 23:4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Eventually, only a few entered the Promise Land. Over 2,000 years the church has walked through the land of Canaan. Just a little bit less than the Israelites did on their journey.

I can’t argue with you there.

Great point.

And another key point: Daniel and Joseph worked for worldly governments.

As were Christians: But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree. (Romans 11:17)

Believers are now in Israel.

“and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree. (Romans 11:17)

Bada-Bing!

I do, however, believe there is a certain type of cultural defeatism which is gaining ground in both broadly evangelical and confessionally Reformed circles.

You bring up a good point.

Although I happen to agree with this author, I'm always concerned that I sound defeatist. I don't look upon it as defeatist but rather pragmatism. Our Lord stated that we should be wise as serpents but innocent as doves. There is nothing wrong with a healthy examination of the world around us. OTOH we really need to get a good swift kick in the pants and get out there and share God's message. But you can't preach a message of hope in the cross without talking about taking up your cross and following.

Every law God has ever given was for our benefit and welfare. Moral laws are given to us whether you're a believer or not. They are standards like the Ten Commandments that helps society. When a nation enforces these laws, Christian or not, society thrives. When a nation willfully abandons God's moral codes, it lead to a degenerate society. God gives these societies over to the hardening of our hearts, and we sink deeper into sin and depravity. It is a cycle that is repeated time and again.

At no time in history do I ever recall so much abandonment of these moral codes by so many nations at one time. Virtually the whole world has abandoned these moral codes. The US is not alone. Asia, Europe, Australia, the America, have all turned a blind eye to justice, truth and God himself. They have made enemies of God. God grants His people an understanding of this by giving us evidence. The rise of homosexuality and a stifling of God's word should be proof to Christians that God has turned His hand from us as a nation and as a world. Historically, the end result of this level of depravity was destruction of the nation. What happens when everyone is in the same boat isn't very hard to imagine.