Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
But what has to happen before a person can go to heaven? They have to die, right?
They are spiritually alive, you're right...but they are not omniscient nor able to hear us. They are in a state of eternal bliss; nothing concerning this world affects them.
But it isn't. Scripture says that God is no respecter of persons. He doesn't play favorites.
say what?
All people are sinners except for Christ. So I should ask a sinner for help when I could ask the sinless who sits at the right hand of God?
When Jesus was asked how we should pray, he did not tell us to pray to his mother, to his brothers, his apostles or even to himself. He taught us to pray direct to God. Anything else is at best, second best.
Catholics do not “believe that only certain ones are saints because the Church says so.” We recognize that there are plenty of saints that the Church has not formally recognized. In fact, the early Church started with a more organic, more grassroots process of canonization, recognizing that there are many people in Heaven (though there are possibly even more in Hell). The Church usually just canonizes certain people to endorse particular attributes and to give clear examples of solid Christian lives.
I absolutely agree with the Bible’s definition of “saint”. The Communion of Saints encompasses both the earthly and the heavenly.
Funny, because our priest (Episcopalian) told us today that he prays to St. John Vianney, patron saint of all priests. I was going to ask him the same thing I asked you, but we ran out of time. God provided amply!
Thanks.
Can you imagine? A believer dies and goes to heaven then is still involved in the pain and suffering in this world? That’s what Catholics would have us believe. And they think that saints become omniscient like God. It’s straight from Satan who wants to be like God.
So how to you tell if someone went to Heaven?
Yeah, and God plays favorites right?
(sigh) more Catholice hoops to jump through in order to justify making man-made tradition equal to Scripture.
I am so glad I left the RCC.
point. It is NOT Biblical to pray to dead people. As mentioned above, when asked how to pray, Jesus spoke only of praying to the Father.
If this heresy was somehow true, where are the examples of prayers to the saints in Scripture. Where did Paul pray to the first Martyr Stephen? When did John pray to Mary?
They didn’t. There is NO example of prayers to the saits,
Bottom line: RCC traditions are heresy.
Prayers to dead people,
Sinless Mary
Co-Redemtrix Mary
Purgatory
.....................its all hogwash. Man Made Bunk.
and now we have a pope telling us you don’t even have to believe in God to go to Heaven.
God Bless Martin Luther. He was the first man to realize you only need Jesus to be saved, not the RCC.
Awesome! I’m glad that I could help! I’ll pray for both you and him. :)
http://catholicism.about.com/od/thesaints/f/Pray_to_Saints.htm
Question: Why Do Roman Catholics Pray to Saints?
Like all Christians, Catholics believe in life after death, but they also believe that our relationship with other Christians does not end with death. Catholic prayer to saints is a recognition of this communion.
Do Catholics believe that saints should be worshiped?
Why do they pray to saints?
Is there a difference between prayer and worship?
Answer:
The Communion of Saints
Like all Christians, Catholics believe in life after death. Those who have lived good lives and died in the faith of Christ will, as the Bible tells us, share in his resurrection.
While we live together on earth as Christians, we are in communion, or unity, with one another. But that communion doesn’t end when one of us dies. We believe that Christians in heaven, the saints, remain in communion with those of us on earth.
So, just as we might ask a friend or family member to pray for us, we can approach a saint with our prayers, too.
The Difference Between Prayer and Worship
Many non-Catholic Christians believe that it is wrong to pray to the saints, claiming that our prayers should be directed to God alone. Some Catholics, responding to this criticism, have argued that we do not pray to the saints but with them.
Both groups, however, are confusing prayer with worship. True worship (as opposed to veneration or honor) does indeed belong to God alone, and we should never worship man or any other creature as we worship God. But while worship may take the form of prayer, as in the Mass and other liturgies of the Church, not all prayer is worship. When we pray to the saints, we’re simply asking them to help us, by praying to God on our behalf, or thanking them for having already done so.
How exactly do “saints” hear prayers? Are they omnipresent or omniscient? Aren’t these divine attributes?
I think the notion that the attributes of God are communicable is highly dubious.....
Prayers of the Saints : More Biblical Support
The Bible shows us how the prayers of others are very beneficial for us and that we should ask for their prayers.
In Genesis God tells Abimelech that he is to return Sarah to Abraham and how because of Abraham’s prayers Abimelech will be saved.
Genesis 20:7
“Therefore, return the man’s wife—as a spokesman he will intercede for you—that your life may be saved.”
Also, in Job we see God telling Job’s false friends Eliphaz and Temanite that they are to go to Job and ask for Job’s prayers. God tells them that he will accept Job’s prayers on their behalf.
Job 42:7-9
“ … the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, ‘I am angry with you and with your two friends; for you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job. Now, therefore, take seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up a holocaust for yourselves; and let my servant Job pray for you; for his prayer I will accept, not to punish you severely. For you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job.’ Then Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite, went and did as the LORD had commanded them. And the LORD accepted the intercession of Job.”
Again in First Kings we see how King Jeroboam appeals for the intercession of a prophet, a man of God, who intercedes for him.
1 Kings 13:4-6
“ … King Jeroboam … stretched forth his hand from the altar … But the hand he stretched forth against him withered, so that he could not draw it back. … Then the king appealed to the man of God. ‘Entreat the LORD, your God,’ he said, ‘and intercede for me that I may be able to withdraw my hand.’ So the man of God entreated the LORD, and the king recovered the normal use of his hand.”
God did not create a me and Jesus only type of arrangement for our salvation. God works through others and God wants us to recognize others seek their help since it is nothing less than God’s help that comes through them. See Acts 9:4
1 Corinthians 16:18
“… for they refreshed my spirit as well as yours. So give recognition to such people.”
And we also see this Biblical encouragement to ask for others prayers made in the New Testament.
Romans 15:30-32
“I urge you, (brothers,) by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judea, and that my ministry for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the holy ones …”
Also see Col 4:3; 1 Thess 5:25; Eph 6:18-19; 2 Thess 3:1
The prayer of others can be life giving.
1 John 5:16
“If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life.”
James 5:16
“ … The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.”
When the saints on earth die and go to heaven they are more righteous because they are even closer to God, and therefore they are even more open to the workings of God’s grace so that their prayers become even more efficacious for us. Asking for the prayers of others cannot violate Christ’s role as sole mediator, see Romans 15:30-32 above. We are all required to love one another and the Saints in heaven express their love for us by praying for us. We are all part of the ONE Body of Christ, 1 Corinthians 12:12-26. Although they have gone before us they are still connected to us through the head of Christ. It would be Scripturally wrong to say that we do not need them. See 1 Corinthians 12:21 below.
The ancient practice of asking the Saints in heaven to pray with us and for us goes back to the early church. The Bible shows that they are in heaven interceding on our behalf and taking our prayers up to God.
Revelation 5:8
“When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.”
Revelation 8:3-4
“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”
The Saints in heaven belong to the Body of Christ. And the Christians on earth also belong to the Body of Christ. So, we have the question, “How many Bodies does Christ have ?”
1 Corinthians 12:27
“Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.”
1 Corinthians 12:20
“But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.”
Cf. Eph 4:4; Col 3:15
Therefore, the saints here on earth are united with the Saints in heaven in the one Body of Christ. We would be wrong to ignore the help that Jesus wants to give us through them and their intercession on our behalf.
James 5:16
“… pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.”
We need the prayers of the Saints in Heaven because we are all one family, and part of following Jesus is being humble enough to accept that we need there help.
1 Corinthians 12:20-21
“But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, ‘I do not need you,’ nor again the head to the feet, ‘I do not need you.’ ”
Therefore, it is a good and holy thing to avail ourselves of help that God wants to give to us through their intercession done in Jesus Christ.
From http://www.defendingthebride.com/ma3/only9.html
The only way to “know” that someone is in Heaven is for the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, to make a solemn judgment about it. Also, there is a very rigorous vetting process (which can be researched online).
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.
Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.
In English:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen
Sigh, see post 94.
I don’t understand, why do you need more than praying to God in Jesus name?
My mother, she managed to put up with my shenanigans for 53+ years, and my wife who has put up with them for 30 years.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.