Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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Suppose for a moment that Teresa is in hell. She did nice things but you don't know what she was REALLY like, in her heart. Maybe she felt compelled to play out a role, hating God and cursing him for her suffering?
How would God feel about your prayers then?
Your only choices are Catholic, prot, Muslim, Jewish, or pagan. Pick one
Elijah didn't die, his taking up into heaven was quite dramatic.
If by some miracle someone made a saint by the Catholic church was truly born again, and that is a BIG IF, then they would be in heaven. Those in heaven have no knowledge or awareness of what is happening on earth after their death.
And since Catholics have misunderstood the meaning of the word saint as it is used in the bible, it is not surprising they believe this claptrap.
What I see here on this forum is not Catholics who are genuinely seeking God’s truth and who want to dialogue with others about it even if it leads them away from Catholicism. They do not want to be disproved at all...they want to shove Catholic doctrine down the throats of anyone listening no matter how inane or bizarre it is.
Please make Special note of the last paragraph of this article.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/533-do-the-dead-observe-earths-activities
Do the Dead Observe Earth’s Activities?
“Is there any Bible evidence that would indicate that members of our family, who have passed on into the realm of the dead, are aware of our activities on earth today?”
There is no detailed discussion of this topic in the Bible. Our conclusions, therefore, can be drawn only from isolated and sketchy portions of Scripture. Note the following.
The Dead Remember
There is clear biblical testimony supporting the fact that the dead have memories of their earthly activities. For example, in the narrative dealing with the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man, though tormented in the Hadean realm, nonetheless could remember his earthly family. At his “father’s house” were “five brothers,” and he agonized that they might also end up in that place of punishment (Lk. 16:27-28). Clearly his memory of the past had not been obliterated.
In the concluding book of the New Testament, John saw a vision of those precious souls who had been martyred for the cause of the slain Lamb. They cried: “How long, O Master, the holy and true, [will it be] before you judge and avenge our blood upon those who dwell upon the earth?” (Rev. 6:10). These servants of the Lord remembered the earth, and that they had lived thereon. They recalled that they had suffered and died at the hands of oppressors, and they remembered the divine promise of being vindicated eventually (cf. Lk. 18:7; Rom. 12:19).
It must be noted, however, that “having memory of the past” is not the equivalent of “being conscious of the present,” as such pertains to a distant environment. I have fond memories of brothers and sisters in the Lord in other lands, with whom I enjoyed association in the past. Yet I have no conscious awareness of what is transpiring in their lives presently.
Where Is the Evidence?
There is no biblical information with which I am familiar that would provide any support for the idea that those in the realm of the dead are able to view the activities of people who now dwell upon the earth. To affirm otherwise calls for evidence. If there is such evidence, I have not seen it. The fact is, there appears to be a direct denial of this theory in the book of Ecclesiastes.
We cannot, at this time, discuss the technical intricacies associated with the book of Ecclesiastes, e.g., authorship and literary structure —nor even the larger context in which the following passage is found. It must suffice at this point simply to say that this sacred book involves an exploration into the meaning of human existence, and what pursuits will, or will not, lead to that level of happiness the Creator intended that we ideally should enjoy. With that said, here is the passage we wish to explore.
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun” (9:5-6).
In this context the writer illustrates the futility of focusing one’s attention primarily upon the things of this earth. There are several reasons cited:
(1) Earthly life will end eventually. Death stalks us all, and we are confronted with this morbid reality daily.
(2) Once a person dies, his ties with earthly environments are severed. He has no awareness of the happenings transpiring upon this planet. He has no further earthly rewards to be received, because he has been removed from this realm, and, in fact, even the memory of him, as a general rule, will eventually fade.
(3) Former earthly associations -good or bad - are interrupted by death. The deceased person is removed forever from activity “under the sun.” This expression, used twenty-nine times in the book of Ecclesiastes, refers to earth’s domain.
In this passage we focus our attention especially upon the affirmation that “the dead know not anything … under the sun.” It is not that they are unconscious in their current spirit state (as materialists allege); rather, they are estranged from the experiences of this environment. Note what several scholars have said regarding this text.
Adam Clarke noted that the dead are cut off from this present realm; they “know nothing of what passes under the sun” (Commentary on the Bible, III, p. 829).
Another writer says that this text affirms that the dead “know not anything … so far as their bodily senses and worldly affairs are concerned” (Jamieson, Faussett & Brown, Bible Commentary, Zondervan, 1961, p. 484).
W.J. Deane observed that “what passes on earth affects them [the dead] not; the knowledge of it reaches them no longer” (Pulpit Commentary, Eerdman, 1950, Vol. 9, p. 226).
Matthew Henry commented that “[w]hen life is gone, all this world is gone with it, as to us … [t]here is an end of all our acquaintance with it, and the things of it. It does not appear that the dead know any thing of what is done by those they left behind” (Comprehensive Commentary, Brattleboro Co., 1845, Vol. III, p. 267).
All of the evidence gathered, therefore, leads to one conclusion. When a person dies, his earthly activity ceases (no reincarnation here), and any active knowledge of earth’s realm is veiled from his vision. This fact highlights the folly of attempting to pray to the dead —as practiced in some religious movements (e.g. in Catholicism’s “prayers to the saints”).
NOTE: When Roman Catholic scholar Bertrand Conway sought to defend the practice of “prayers to the saints,” he could cite not a single Bible verse affirming or implying that human beings, in the domain of the dead, could hear or respond to the petitions of those living on earth (The Question Box, Catholic Truth Society, 1929, pp. 368-70). This absence textual evidence, on the part of such a learned gentleman, constitutes a devastating implication.
Christians ARE sons and daughters of God as well as being heirs to His kingdom.
This instruction was not new, the book of Ecclesiastes describes the flesh body and that soul/spirit intellect placed in flesh at conception. Only the soul/spirit intellect is that which returns to the Maker that sent it.
The parable of that rich man and Lazarus demonstrates that all return to the Maker upon the death of the flesh. There is a wall of separation between the over-comers and those that did things their own way.
Notice John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.
And Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
The devil will not be born of flesh and he will not see nor enter the kingdom of God.
As to the ‘saint’ makers, I cannot find it Written any place by the holy prophets that God gave that job of picking who is a saint to anyone but Himself.
I have to say that it is astonishing what those who are not filled with the Holy Spirit will believe.
Are you three Spirit-filled? There is absolutely no doubt when you are and the Spirit will give you discernment and a clear understanding of Scripture.
My prayer for all of you is that you will seek the Lord and ask to be born again of His Spirit. Without a spiritual rebirth you will never see the Kingdom of God. That you will become indwelt by the Spirit and that you will be led to truth and understanding even if it leads you out of the Catholic church.
So which of you is willing to lay everything on the line for Christ even if it means giving up the comfort of your organized man-made religion? Do any of you really want Jesus Christ so badly that you are prepared to walk away from Catholicism? Is He more important to you than it? Pray that He reveals the truth to you even if it means leaving something you have held so dear all your life. Which one of you is brave enough to lose everything in order to know the Savior?
And that is exactly what one would believe if they had no clear understanding of what a biblical saint is.
I am not going to leave you alone on this one, salvation. I am going to stick to you like glue until your spiritual eyes are opened.
God bless you,
jodyel
There is no such thing as purgatory. When we die, we either go to Heaven or Hell. The souls in either place are awaiting judgement and have no knowledge of what is presently happening on this earth.
The saints are the born-again believers of Jesus, living and dead. I am a saint. If you are Spirit-filled, then you are a saint.
As I said, salvation, I am going to stick to you like glue on this point.
Bullseye!
Thats why praying to Mary or any other “saint” is nothing but idolatry.
So if you're really suffering, it's a GOOD thing because it means God REALLY, REALLY loves you...... Wow, is that twisted thinking about God.Who do you think suffered the most on earth? Jesus, perhaps? Do you think it is "twisted" that G-d allowed His Son to suffer that much?
“They share in the divine omniscience, as I mentioned in my explanation of Luke 15:10 and Luke 20:35-36.”
They absolutely, unequivocally do not!
But you will not understand this until you learn the meaning of what constitutes a biblical saint. And only the Holy Spirit can show you this.
“it couldn’t hurt to invoke the intercession of a heavenly saint.”
Indeed it could cause great harm when prayers to dead people go unanswered and cause one to be discouraged. As Spirit-filled believers, we have access to God’s throne thru Jesus. We may come into the presence of the great I AM because of what Jesus has done. And I certainly would NEVER trade that for anything!
Please, guys, wake up!! You are missing out on the best relationship ever because of your need to cling to what is comfortable to you. God wants your soul, your spirit to be one with His and the only way that can ever happen is to let all this dogma go and surrender to Him. Just like Jesus, I am pleading with you to surrender and come to Him just as you are!
Suppose for a moment that Teresa is in hell. She did nice things but you don't know what she was REALLY like, in her heart. Maybe she felt compelled to play out a role, hating God and cursing him for her suffering? How would God feel about your prayers then?Can't imagine anyone thinking this way... even for a moment.
Please see my post regarding where the dead go when they die. They have no knowledge of what is occurring on earth and do not hear from the living.
As I said before, are you hungry enough for Jesus and truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit? Are you willing to lay down everything you know and love for Him, including your Catholic dogma? If your answer is no, then there is nothing more to say. If your answer is yes, then you have a wonderful journey ahead of you.
...Do any of you really want Jesus Christ so badly that you are prepared to walk away from Catholicism? Is He more important to you than it? Pray that He reveals the truth to you even if it means leaving something you have held so dear all your life. Which one of you is brave enough to lose everything in order to know the Savior?As my husband said years ago to a daily-Mass Catholic who was leaving the Church to attend his wife's denomination, "I'd rather have knives thrown at me during the Catholic Mass, than to sit in the pews of Luther." (Does that answer your question?)
There is no such thing as a saint with a capital S and one with a lowercase s with God.
His people are His saints and those who are born again know who they belong to and are called saints.
Your version of sainthood with a capital S is only another of fallen man’s attempts to elevate himself above others. And, again, I say that when you are filled with the Holy Spirit this truth will be made known to you.
Capital "S" saints are simply saints that are formally recognized by the Church.
If you're concerned about un-biblical practices, you should know that Luther's dogma of "the Bible alone," as the sole rule of faith, isn't in the Bible.
Don’t you understand that God wants you to approach Him? He created us for fellowship with Him. He allows us to come right into His throne room, at the foot of His throne, and make our petitions known directly to Him thru Jesus. We are made righteous by Jesus and have access to the great I AM! Why would you not want that? This is the one and only way we are made acceptable to God and are allowed into His presence. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father constantly interceding on behalf of the saints.
Do not let anything or anyone keep you from this wonderful privilege. Shout it from the roof tops as loud as you can. I am God’s child and was bought with an enormous price. And my simple belief in this sacrifice has given me direct access to the very throne of God Almighty, and every other privilege and honor and rights of heaven are mine.
I will rule and reign with Him over the nations when He comes again. What could there possibly be in the Catholic church or in any other earthly place that can compare?
Then you led her astray..simple as that.
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