Posted on 09/14/2013 12:29:44 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
John 3:14-18 doesn’t necessarily support the “faith alone” position.
For Protestants, John 3:14-18 might seem like the ultimate “Gotcha!” passage to use against Catholics. But if you look a little deeper, you’ll recognize that the passage does not defend the “faith alone” position and is totally in line with Catholic teaching.
The passage reads as, “‘As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.’”
That might seem a little damning to the Catholic position that good works are necessary, right? Well, in truth, it’s not.
With God, to believe means to obey. God does not desire a lukewarm, vague belief in Him, but a devoted life in His service. This is evidenced later in the chapter. John 3:36 reads as, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
And if one looks at verses 19-21 of the chapter, they will see that Christ said that those who “love darkness” and do “evil deeds” will not reach “the Light” (Heaven).
Sin — which, at its heart, is anything offensive to God — is a heinous, damaging thing that we must cleanse ourselves of. This cleansing is done through Christ, of course, but meriting it requires a little more than a belief in Him. It requires a repentant heart (see Luke 13:3) and, in the case of mortal sin, sacramental confession (see my video about Confession).
On top of all of this, Christ told us in John 13:15 to follow the example that He set and He also told us — in John 15:10 — that we must keep His commandments to “abide in [His] love”.
We can’t just sit back and relax non-stop, counting on our vague “faith” to save us — we have to do things! Like St. Paul wrote in Colossians 1:24, we must help the Church in “filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.”
So, when reading the Bible, remember that true belief requires obedience and good works.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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I would suggest a careful review of the text:
As the scriptures clearly states:
So no, it doesn't require obedience and good works. It requires repentance, submission to His word and prayer. God will produce the good works as He sees fit.
It may be best to read Augustine after reading the scriptures.
“Augustine correctly pointed out, we are saved to do good works. We don’t do good works because we are saved. There is nothing we have that has not been given to us.”
Indeed!
“When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. “But we say,” say they, “that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work.” But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, “We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who works all things”. (Ephesians 1:11) He, therefore, works the beginning of our belief who works all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;” (Romans 11:29) and of which it is said: “Not of works, but of Him that calls” (Romans 9:12) (although He might have said, of Him that believes); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” (John 15:16) For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 38)
“All our good merits are only wrought in us by grace, and -when God crowns our merits, he crowns nothing but his own gifts. (Augustine, Letter 194)
“Have just men, then, no merits? Certainly they have, because they are righteous. But they were not made righteous by merits. For they are made righteous when they are justified, but as the apostle says, they are justified freely by his grace.” (Ibid)
“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)
“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)
“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace. (Augustine, Sermon 293)
Thank you! I will pray for you, too. :)
Pot == meet kettle. How many times do non-Catholics say they “think” _____ and _____ is what Catholics belive?
Mathew
21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
**as it gives us more opportunity to drive them all mad**
Hardly what I would call a Christian attitude.
The world, unfortunately, is not that simple.
What happens to the sins committed every day after OSAS procedures?
Remember, that Augustine did some writing before he converted.
You did not quote a source.
“Hardly what I would call a Christian attitude”
Well, it’s not like I don’t desire that they repent. But, since the vast majority of FRomans are enemies of Christ, who even believe that Atheists can be saved as long as they perform good works, to drive them mad with the scripture is a worthy outcome, if they do not repent.
“Remember, that Augustine did some writing before he converted.
You did not quote a source.”
We’ve been over this many times, and the RM has weighed in on them as well telling you so. Each quote is indeed sourced per Religious Forum guidelines. All you have to do is go either to newadvent.com, or any of the number of websites that have these writings, and look them up yourself, using the book and chapter numbers I have given. I tire of you making these false claims when the source is clearly present.
Secondly, these are all obviously writings from his Bishopric, and also during the controversy against Pelagius and the Semi-Pelagians. These are not his Pre-Christian/Manichean writings. Please get educated on Augustine before damning his writings. Charity calls you to at least that.
They, too are forgiven. Don't take my word for it. Paul talks about it quite clearly!
Romans 7: 4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. ...
...14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!...
Romans 8: ... 8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
How can they be forgiven when you do not go to Confession? How do you know for sure? Can you read god’s mind?
Can you read God’s mind?
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I don’t know. You tell me.
Amen. The proof that they are ALL forgiven is the fact that God raised Him from the dead. If even ONE sin was left unpaid for, God in His perfect justice, could not have raised Him.
Once again you fall back into the default position of Roman error. There is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ.
Yes, I can read God's mind. I can even quote him. I sent you my last post quoting words straight and direct confirming that. But, the Roman Catholic relies on the teachings of the magisterium, not on Scripture, the word of God. The Roman Catholics claim to have clear insight into the Scripture, but prefer to place phony doctrines of men above it.
You can spout the party line but it does not change God's word. God is a Spirit. He enters into our lives when we give up our life to him. He doesn't need some guy in a black shirt with a white collar or dressed in elegant gowns to represent us and forgive us. Jesus died on the cross, so that by faith we can have eternal life. He was unequivocal. He made it clear and concise that “whoever believes in me shall have eternal life”.
Salvation is not a screen name. It seems an ultimate presumption. Salvation is a free gift from God through Jesus Christ life, death, and resurrection. It is a free gift. There are no qualifications from some doctrine of devils, all it requires is faith. A free gift means that it comes without a price To us. Jesus paid the price.
You may continue to spout the party line, and rant about the unfairness of being offended when corrected by Scripture, but the word of God stands eternally.
Hebrews 4: 12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
"Having made KNOWN unto us the mystery OF HIS WILL, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:..." Eph. 1:9
So YES, we CAN read God's mind. He's very pro-mind reading..
I don't mind interruption when it is continuing the propagation of God's truths. As Christians, we share the same mind through His Holy Spirit. We are family!
Romans 8; 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. ...
Romans 12: ... 12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
I want to make sure you checked your private FReepmail. I sent you a message and hope you received it!
Regards,
smvoice
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