MegaChurch or Catholic Church?

taylormarshall.com ^ | August 26, 2013 | Dr. Taylor Marshall

[NYer]

Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.

Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance

I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.

Why the Megachurch?

When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:

1. “My new church has an iPhone app. I can go on my iPhone and get Bible studies, sermons (video and audio). When I travel I can still watch the sermon, either live or later. I feel apart of the community.”
2. “The preaching is dynamic and speaks to my life. I find practical encouragement.”
3. “I felt judged at the Catholic Church.”
4. “People were not friendly or welcoming at the Catholic Church. The first time I went to my new church, I was welcomed by so many people.”
5. “My new church has classes and courses that are interesting and helpful.”
6. “The music is better.”
7. “In the Catholic Church, they use a lot of words that I did not understand.”
8. “People pray for each other and know each other (in the megachurch).”

Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.

I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:

1. “There are not any crosses in my new church. I know it makes some people feel uncomfortable, but I wish we had crosses.”
2. “What will I do when I die?” They were both unclear about whether they could get anything like Last Rites at the megachurch.

What About the Eucharist?

I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”

This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”

“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”

I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.

The Problem

This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.

So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?

If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.

Godspeed,
Taylor

PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.

PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!

Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people

[metmom]

We don't need the church's teachings when we have the word of God itself/Himself.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

[Melian]

“Suffering doesn’t pay for sin or purify us.” I think Christ, and God the Father, would beg to differ! Christ suffered for us. And the Father found it meaningful!

Another clue is that Christ fasted for 40 days. Apparently He thought suffering counted for something then too! LOL

[metmom]

If you go online and find the text of the original Scripture, you will see what I am saying is true. If you choose to read a version that some earthly King or disgruntled Priest or Billy Bob slashed parts out of, that’s your choice. I choose to read and believe the original, unedited, untampered with, Holy Spirit inspired, sacred Scripture. Not one men have made in their own image.

And yet the Catholic church uses what? The Latin Vulgate? A translation.

If the Catholic Bible is translated from the Vulgate, then it is a translation of a translation.

What original texts did the Catholic church use when it translated the Bible into English.

[metmom]

I would assert we love it most because we believe it as the Spirit inspired it to be written and we don’t presume to alter it in any way.

Yeah, we all *know* that Catholics are better than everyone else. They tell us constantly.

[metmom]

Agreed. The fragmentation increases exponentially in the Protestant movement. I see it as a clear sign that Christ is not steering that ship! It flies against everything he wanted for us all.

1 Corinthians 12:12-31 12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

Lockstep unity of doctrine is not a requirement for salvation. Variety prevents stagnation.

Would you want every person on the planet to look identical? Every sunset? Every tree?

It's not necessary for every church to be identical to every other church. Since salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, it's irrelevant that there are differences of opinion on some matters.

Romans 14:1-12 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

[metmom]

Again, we know each of us receives a unique spiritual gift from the Holy Spirit and not all receive the same gift. But Jesus selected 12 people to be special leaders. He gave them special teaching, experiences, and prayed special prayers for them. He promised the Spirit would come to guide them. He prayed they would remain united in the faith. Scripture also tells us to avoid those who create dissension: Rom 16:17.

And then they died.

And Catholics have the best, most complete, most divine Bible of all available to them. Not the one men have defaced and defiled to suit their whims/weaknesses. Truly, the Catholic Church is marked in all ways as Christ’s one, true Church!

Even your Bible is better than everyone else's?

Even with the apocryphal books they added to the Jewish Scripture that the Jews never recognized as Scripture, that were added at the Council of Trent that happened AFTER Luther translated the Bible from what was accepted canon for the day? The apocryphal books that have the errors in them?

[metmom]

“Suffering doesn’t pay for sin or purify us.” I think Christ, and God the Father, would beg to differ!

Really? Show us the chapter and verse that says that suffering pays for sin. Where does either God or Jesus tell us to suffer to pay for our sins or purify us, or that suffering does that.

Christ suffered for us. And the Father found it meaningful!

Yeah. The Catholic God is happy over making people suffer. It's like Catholics think it impresses or pleases God that we suffer.

OK, so I'll bite anyway. HOW did God find Christ's suffering *meaningful*?

And do you think that it was Christ's suffering that paid for our sin or His death that paid for our sin?

[Melian]

I agree with you on that: we are told to offer up our bodies as living sacrifice and walk the way of the cross. It is a path of obedience and self-denial and it only ends when Jesus tells us “it is finished” and we die.

Matt 24:13 tells us only those who persevere to the end will be saved. Romans 11:22 tells us to remain in His kindness or you will be cut off. John 14:21 tells us that he who keeps Christ’s commandments is the one who loves Him. Romans 2:2-8 tells us we gain eternal life by perseverance in good works. Gal 5:4-6 tells us nothing counts but faith working through love. Eph 2: 8-10 tells us we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. Phil 2:12-13 tells us to work on our salvation with fear and trembling. James 2:14-24 says a man is justified by works and not faith alone.

Salvation is not that simple. It would be nice if it was, and lots of people would like to believe it was that easy, but the Holy Spirit inspired sacred Scripture above says it is not. Hb 6:4-6 describes sharers in the Holy Spirit who then fall away. Heb 10:26-27 tells us if you sin after receiving the truth, judgement remains. And let’s not forget what Christ said about the lukewarm. Presumably they believed but not very actively or strongly. Are the lukewarm saved? There are just too many passages in Holy Scripture that contradict the simplistic notion of being “saved”.

I think of Salvation as receiving a ticket to Heaven on the day of your baptism, but you can’t misplace, ruin, or lose the ticket. You have to take good care of it and keep it safe until the day you die and present it to board the train. You have to be dependable and mindful that you will be taking that journey. The gift of Faith is to be held on to and lived with and kept safe until the end. We must finish the race to the end.

Finally, I have always wondered if the concept of being “saved” was presented to Protestants as a way to grow the membership. It is a soothing, attractive, and non-strenuous idea, one that would appeal to the masses. As we can see above, it’s not really Scriptural, because I can cite just as many passages that refute the idea. But it makes people feel good. They are happy because the issue seems nicely settled for them. It’s a more difficult and thought provoking journey to work out your salvation with fear and trembling every single day. And you have to tell yourself “no” a lot.

The key for me is this: Christ’s way is not easy. He told us so in the parable of the narrow gate. He showed that again when the followers could not accept his hard teaching in John 6 and walked away and He let them go. He showed us when even Peter denied Him and the apostles abandoned Him. Paul had to live with temptations every day. Christ asked us to do the hardest thing of all: love others as much as we love ourselves. Obviously that has to happen every day of our lives, even after we receive the gift of faith. He told the good man he was doing great but now he had to sell everything and do more. He told the prostitute her contrition saved her but she MUST SIN NO MORE. There’s a big “or else” in that story. Being “saved” is easy; but, for me, it truly doesn’t jive with everything we know about Christ’s life.

bkaycee, I want to thank you for the tone of your posts and the thoughtful responses. I also forgot to mention to you before that in our parish bulletin there are Scripture passages cited for reading every day of the week. We are not forced to read Scripture, but in our bulletin every week we Catholics are invited to read the Bible every day and incorporate it into our lives. We also bow to the Bible before and after each reading. And before the Gospel reading we make the sign of the cross on our foreheads, lips and chests as a way of asking Christ’s Word to fill our thoughts, our words, and our hearts.

Most Protestants do not know these facts. They believe what they are told at their churches about Catholics. I invite anyone to go to a Mass and see how we treat the Bible. We love it too!

[Melian]

metmom, you surprise me. Did Christ not suffer to pay for our sin? Did Christ not suffer to purify our guilt? Did God the Father not find that a meaningful sacrifice?

If Christ’s suffering did not help pay for our sin, there would have been no reason for Him to suffer. He could have been quickly murdered without any suffering, if only death was required. But he suffered. Why? Because suffering for God’s sake matters. Loving God enough to suffer for Him matters. Christ’s death saved us, but He suffered for some reason. We know Christ valued endurance: Matt 10:22

And how many times in Scripture do we read about God tempering those He loves like steel in the fire? Suffering well for love of God matters to Him!

This is pretty basic. St. Paul talks often about how he suffers for Christ. I’m not sure what your problem with it is, but you will find your answer in the New Testament.

[Melian]

I believe the original text of the Bible was in Greek and was then translated to the Latin. The Catholic Church preserved the original for all time until men tore chunks out of it. Our translation is based on the Greek original. We decided what the text of the Bible was, in accord with the Holy Spirit.

Oh, a passage on suffering: Romans 8: 16-17 we are heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him. Phil 1: 28-29 granted to believe, also to suffer for him. Col 1:24 filling up what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings. Heb 12: 5-7 whom God loves, he disciplines. 1 Peter 2: 19-21 suffering equals grace and Jesus suffered as our example.

Gee, I guess Catholics do read the Bible, metmom. I’m glad I could find these passages for you since you seem unfamiliar with them.

[Melian]

All Catholics should feel free to share the beauty and glory of their faith in Christ with others. That’s called evangelization and Christ asked us to do it in Scripture. We are to spread the Good News!

It is right for Catholics to let people know we feel our Church has the fullest, most beautiful, most Scriptural and dependable understanding of Christ.

[Melian]

Yes, our Bible is better. It has not been defaced by mere men. It was compiled under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and has not been “edited” like other religions’ bibles.

[Melian]

Time for bed here, but I believe I’ve answered your questions.

I believe I’ve proved in my posts that many serious Catholics love and read the Bible.

I believe I’ve proved in my posts that I know Scripture as well as you do.

I think I’ve given you serious food for thought, should you choose to think. And I hope you will. I will gladly mail you a parish bulletin so you can see we read the Bible for yourself.

I’m not sure why a happy and fulfilled Catholic generates such heat on these threads, but I will continue to check in from time to time. I only know that there is a depth and glory and beauty to Catholicism that cannot be matched by any man-made religion. I can feel Christ’s touch on every part of the Mass. And I know that I am supposed to share that joy with everyone I meet.

[verga]

I was responding to Izzy's post #1342: You are not giving God enough credit...It is impossible for a human female to get pregnant without the cooperation of a human male...But it happened... Apparently modern science has proven that that a female can not provide the necessary chromosome to create a male of the species...That chromosome had to have been provided by a human male, or God... While that flies in the face of what the Catholic religion teaches, there is no other way around it...

Therefore my response about Pathogenesis remains spot on. I am now awaiting 2 admissions of error from you and on from Izzy and metmom. I am well aware that I will never get one, but I am due them.

[verga]

Okay come on enroll in our schools basic biology class and you can work your way up from there. This way you will be dead on certain that the material is covered.

[verga]

Thanks for that link that clears up the issue.

What it clears up is that Izzy was wrong about pathogenesis being a miracle and I was correct that it is a scientific fact.

[verga]

I love how protestants have to call in reinforcements every time they are getting their butts kicked /MAJOR SARC.

[Iscool]

Pathogenesis

I didn't know what it meant so I had to look it up...

path·o·gen·e·sis
noun \ˌpa-thə-ˈje-nə-səs\
Definition of PATHOGENESIS
: the origination and development of a disease

Apparently you don't either...

[count-your-change]

As we have discussed before that binding and loosing according to the Greek text occurred before Peter used these keys so Peter was affirming heaven's decision not the other way around.

The mistranslation of Matt. 16:19 in order to support a doctrine of infallabilty and authority is obvious from a simple understanding of the Greek.

[Iscool]

What it clears up is that Izzy was wrong about pathogenesis being a miracle and I was correct that it is a scientific fact.

The link I posted showed that the results weren't favorable to a male human being created without the dna of a male doner...

For it to happen in the case of Jesus without a miraculous intervention would be statistically impossible and the result would not at all be favorable...