Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.
Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.
When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:
Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.
I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:
I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”
This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”
“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”
I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.
This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.
So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?
If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.
Godspeed,
Taylor
PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.
PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!
Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people
Isn’t that fun! I grew up in a family of harmonizers. I also sang in a barbershop group for years. Praising God through song with others in harmony is a joy indeed.
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:” (Luke 1:32)
“And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?” (Matt 12:23)
“And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.” (Matt 15:22)
“And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.” (Matt 20:30)
“And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.” (Matt 21:9)
Christ Himself drew a line between the human nature and the eternal nature of Christ.
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46) [See also: Mark 12: 35-37, and Luke 20:41-44]
He has clearly established the fact that David is NOT the father of God, because he is NOT the father of the second person of the blessed trinity. He has clearly shown this distinction of natures to be a mystery.
Another indication of the distinct natures of Jesus.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
God didn’t give the “Spirit” to the second person of the Trinity He would have already been “one” with it.
The second person of the Trinity has neither beginning nor end. Jesus Christ the man died on that cross. The second person of the Trinity did not die nor can it die or be put to death.
David was NOT the father of the second person of the Trinity and neither was Mary.
Bear, maybe be a little less cynical to the point that you could reference a different scripture. Matt 12:46-50. The larger point is that saving faith in God puts one into the family of God. Abraham obviously had it. I think the “grandfather” part could be used figuratively as an extension of the metaphor that Christ already used, but can’t be a dogma of itself (which kind of usage was a problem the early church had). Why not clarify the sphere of its validity, then go on. This is almost like quarrels about words. There are important doctrinal hills to die on. I fail to see how this is one, if it is.
heh heh, Mary couldn’t possibly be the father of God...
not sure quite what this is all getting at.
of course all Catholics don't read the bible...there are "Catholics" who have no idea of what the Bible is....However you met 2 Catholics who did so and there are a couple of BILLION Catholics in the world....what are the odds that many members of a 2,000 year old organization read its' guidebook....the Catholic church gave you the scriptures....preserved them, transcribed them (by hand), and basically makes it possible for all of us to enjoy and learn from them.....say thanks!!
How about getting less cynical... there are false condemnations that come from false representations of scripture. You don’t go playing Sabre Dance wildly with the Sword of Truth. That’s a way to get everybody feeling cut up to no good end.
The “mother of god” concept is purely a pagan concept. It is vitally important as Catholics base much of their belief system on it. Not admitting the separate fully human and fully God aspect of Jesus causes a total lack of understanding Matt 12:46-50 as well.
Seven.
Where in the world did you get that from? Did I miss type something? Where did anyone say Mary was the “father” of God?
Never mind. I see I didn’t finish that last sentence. Oops.
Where was the God part of Jesus when He was in Mary’s womb?
Where was the God part of Jesus when Jesus died on the Cross?
You want to insist He was not divine in these moments.
I am not sure why. Jesus is God. Jesus is the Son of Mary. Mary is the Mother of a person who is God.
Yes, one can’t inordinately elevate Mary in estimation past the role that God Himself gave to her. It has things in common with pagan systems, but keep in mind that pagan systems also sometimes managed to echo elements of Christianity as even evangelicals believe it. I am slow to scream “PAGAN” to something that could be an independent error without showing beyond other explanations some kind of nexus through which it could happen. Likeness doesn’t necessarily establish route of connection. I wrestled vigorously a couple weeks ago with a guy who was entrapped in a philosophical trap that caused him to rail at any manifestation of God in human worship as the work of the devil. It was in vain and I walked away, but not without some enlightenment on my own part.
Notice it says “them that are sanctified.”
None of us on earth are sanctified. Yet.
Still your opinion. Not the Holy Spirit.
OK, I just went back to my post at #1089 just to make sure --- and sure enough, I never said that! I never said David was the father of the 2nd Person of the Trinity(!!)
... but he was the father of Jesus Christ, who is God... and Man. This means only that David is His ancestor according to the flesh, and Jesus is truly Son of David, Son of Mary, and Son of God.
Back at #1089, I made an extra-special point of this fact, and framed it: that this does NOT mean that Jesus' forebears were sources of the Godhead. It just means that they were Jesus' ancestors, whose flesh Jesus assumed when He became Man.
Jesus is one Person, co-eternal with the Father. But He has two natures: divine and human. Mary is his genetic mother (gave Him flesh, i.e. a human nature), gestational mother (carried Him in her womb), parturient mother (Theotokos, gave Him birth), nursing mother (suckled Him), social mother, legal mother, even home-schooling mother I suppose: His Mater et Magistra.
But not the source of His Divinity.
I don't think you doubt any of this.
That's the aggravatin' part. I think we're arguing about something we both agree on.
Nighty-night! You'll have to argue tomorrow without me!
Try to carry on!
Unbelievable. All these posts and still no scripture from you. Sigh. I think I should just be done with you.
ok who’s more cynical, bear or you
Well, let’s just take their word on whether they incorporate paganism.
“We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and the rites paid to the dead. But the Church from a very early period took them into her service, just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed proper to enhance the splendor of religious ceremonial. We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments etc. were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular; but they were common to almost all cults” (Catholic Encyclopedia, III, 246.)
“When we give or receive Christmas gifts; or hang green wreaths in our homes and churches, how many of us know that we are probably observing pagan customs...the god, Woden, in Norse Mythology, descends upon the earth yearly between December 25th and January 6th to bless mankind...But pagan though they be, they are beautiful customs. They help inspire us with the spirit of 'good will to men', even as the sublime service of our Church reminds us of the ‘peace on earth’ which the babe of Bethlehem came to bestow” (Externals of the Catholic Church, 140).
Catholics can’t deny that the RCC has incorporated pagan practices into its practices. The RCC itself admits that it does.
Ok! So you do not believe Mary is the “mother of God”?
See post 1070. Sanctification has been completed and is being completed.
Spiritually, it is a done deal. In this physical body, still burdened with the flesh, it’s being worked out.
Spiritually I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ lives in me. Physically, this body hasn’t changed, except to become more broken down with age.
Spiritually, believers are seated with Christ in the heavenly places. Physically, my body is here on earth.
Spiritually, I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Physically, this flesh loves to sin too much and I sin.
Spiritually, I am alive in Christ. Physically, this body is dying and will die.
There is a spiritual reality around us, in which we operate as much as we do in the physical. Catholicism does not teach the reality of that spiritual dimension that is taught in Scripture. That’s why Catholics don’t get being positionally in Christ and how God can see us without sin even though He, we, and everyone else knows we sin.
He CHOOSES to not count our sins against us and to see us as having the righteousness of Christ, crediting it to our account Himself.
That is how we can say that once we are saved, ALL our sin is forgiven, even the sin we have not yet committed. But Catholics and Catholicism so focus on the here and now, that they can’t get past seeing the sin they commit.
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