Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.
Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.
When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:
Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.
I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:
I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”
This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”
“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”
I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.
This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.
So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?
If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.
Godspeed,
Taylor
PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.
PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!
Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people
We are told to offer up our bodies as a living sacrifice,
Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
But, this is out of Love and Gratitude for the Free Gift of salvation, NOT to earn salvation.
Peace with God Through Faith
Romans 5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Intercessory Prayer to Saints:
Rom 15:30 (join me by your prayers to God on my behalf)
Col 4:3; 1 Thes5:25 (pray for us)
2 Th 1:11 (we always pray for you)
2 Th 3: 1 (finally, brothers, pray for us)
Eph 6:18-19 (make supplication for all the saints and for me)
Tob 12:12 (an angel presents Tobit and Sarah’s prayer to God)
Rev 5:8 (angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God)
I do not believe that I have ever met bkaycee and yet he (she?) is correct.
I also grew up in the northeast and bkaycee’s experiences that have been related in the past on the RF mirror mine.
Paul is asking the people he is writing to, those believers who were then living on the earth, to pray for him, not people who have died and are in heaven.
Prayer to saints cannot be justified using those verses because they are not directed to or relevant to those no longer living on the earth, aka known as "dead people", but I've heard all the Catholic argument I care to about that.
Just a ploy...Same with scripture alone...We can and have shown them 'scripture alone' all over the bible but as long as they can't see the words 'Sola Scripture', they pretend to have an argument against it...
I believe the Catholic Church says that a mortal sin puts you “in jeopardy of Hell.” It doesn’t say you absolutely will go to Hell. Christ will still judge your life in its entirety and He knows you better than anyone.
The pharisees LOOKED like they were doing everything right, but Christ had harsh words for them. He pardoned an adulteress... as long as she amended her life/actions from then on. Her mortal sin was pardoned. No one can know what will transpire in a person’s heart at the moment of death. There may be an instant of contrition and that moment may be all Christ is looking for.
The Catholic Church does not condemn people, just acts of sin. Only Christ can render judgement on a soul. You have never heard the Church say anyone, not even Hitler, went to Hell, because we don’t know. Only God can know the depths of a soul and that soul’s culpability. But we do know that God does not like certain actions and we tell it straight. Some acts are so seriously sinful that they place your soul in jeopardy.
And yes, no one gets to Heaven without being pure, so we believe God, in His great love and mercy, gave us Purgatory where the souls that have earned salvation through sincere contrition can go to do penance for their sin and become purified.
What about Luke 16: 19-30 where a departed rich man intercedes for his brothers? Surely those departed saints in heaven are rich and their prayers are pleasing to God? We know the heavenly host prays, praises and adores constantly in Heaven. And we know they are part of the body of Christ. They are our brothers and, though many, we are one.
BlueDragon, like I told you my earlier reply to you, you often have to know the context of a discussion in order to know what one particular post is about. In order to do that, you have to work your way backwards, looking at the previous post that the post you're confused about is pointing to, then to the post pointed to before that (by the "To post#" shown on the bottom of each post), as far back as it takes until you can get the flavor and context of that discussion within a thread.
The post you were asking me about in your post #749 was my post #738 (addressed to "metmom"), and the backward chain went like this: Posts 738-734-727-714-712.
metmom understood my points, and I understood metmom's points. We didn't always see eye-to-eye in all those posts, but we both clearly understood the points the other was making.
(In that particular discussion, we were talking about the Greek words used for "body" in various New Testament texts. If you read those five posts, you should clearly know what all our points were as well.)
You also said in your post #749 that in another thread (from almost a month ago), I replied to one of your posts to me with a "freepmail, privately chewing you out over the issue being discussed". I urge you to re-read that freepmail, as it was not sent to you because of that issue, but plainly was feedback in reference to the tactics you used in your post to me in that thread.
The Free Republic rules say that we can't carry over discussions from some old thread into a new thread, and I certainly won't.
However, I can make a more generalized statement to you here in this thread.
I believe that most Christian posters in this Religious Forum discussing our Christian faith and it's various viewpoints and beliefs, would strongly agree that they would not appreciate the equivalent of being called "stupid" and a "liar", all in the same post.
A far better rule of thumb for all of us to follow when posting on these Christian discussion threads would be the Godly instruction given here by Our Blessed Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ:
"So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12It would be a great principle for all us posters to follow in all our posts.
I'm not an Eastern Orthodox, but you are wrong about the differences between them and Roman Catholicism. These differences are so important that there has been no reconciliation in nearly a thousand years after the split. The Eastern Orthodox differ with Roman Catholicism on these issues:
The Holy Spirit (the filioque)
In EO - The third person of the Trinity, proceeding from the Father alone as in the original Nicene Creed. The Father sends the Spirit at the intercession of the Son. The Son is therefore an agent only in the procession of the Spirit.
In RC - 'When the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, He is not separated from the Father, He is not separated from the Son'.
Mary - Assumption and Immaculate conception of
EO - The Assumption is accepted and it is agreed that Mary experienced physical death, but the Immaculate conception is rejected. Orthodox belief is that the guilt of original sin is not transmitted from one generation to the next, thus obviating the need for Mary to be sinless.
RC - Both are dogmas of the church. The church has not as yet decided whether Mary actually experienced Physical death. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception states that Mary, was at conception 'preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin' and should not be confused with the virgin birth.
Pope - Authority of
EO - As the Bishop of Rome, he has a primacy of honour when Orthodox, not of jurisdiction. At present, his primacy is not effective as the papacy needs to be reformed in accordance with Orthodoxy. His authority is thus no greater or lesser than any of his fellow Bishops in the church.
RC - The Pope is the 'Vicar of Christ' i.e. the visible head of the church on earth and spiritual successor of St. Peter. He has supreme authority (including that over church councils) within Christendom (The Power of the keys).
Pope - Infallibility of
EO - Papal Infallibility is rejected. The Holy Spirit acts to guide the church into truth through (for example) ecumenical councils. This Orthodoxy recognises the first seven ecumenical councils (325-787) as being infallible.
RC - The Pope is infallible when, through the Holy Spirit, he defines a doctrine on faith and morals that is to be held by the whole church. This is a dogma and is therefore a required belief within Catholicism.
Purgatory
EO - An intermediate state between earth and heaven is recognised, but cleansing and purification occur in this life, not the next.
RC - A place of cleansing and preparation for heaven. Also a place where the punishment due to unremitted venial sins may be expiated.
I'd say these were the "biggies", but other differences also exist. These are explained HERE
that is about the most inane explanation of the last supper that I have ever seen.....pathetic
good grief ....I went to Catholic schools and never carried a bible either....but then I never carried a dictionary, encyclopedia, or many other books. You said that you were in religion classes....what on earth do you think that they were teaching from...a cookbook???....3 or 4 minutes of scriptures at Mass???..the Epistles (2 readings), the Gospel, the numerous prayers, the sermon....all from the bible or biblically inspired. You just weren't paying attention!!!!!!!!
how very sad for you....you didn't read the bible because you ASSUMED , for whatever reason, that Catholics don't do that......they do
you should listen to the priests and nuns in your family....they are right and you are in error...notice I didn't say "wrong" but you have given up the completeness of Catholic Christianity for some man made "feel good" interpretation of various portions of the bible and Christian tradition. It is very sad to witness such a situation. We, unfortunately see much of the same effect in our country politically....grab one or two ideals of being an American and ignore the rest because some misguided soul convinced you that he/she is right and the founding fathers were misguided.....a perfect analogy.
Have you ever read Paedagogus by Clement of Alexandria? Try the 6th. chapter of Bk. 1. It’s free online.
Purgatory cannot purge sins because suffering does not pay for them.
Hebrews 9:18-28 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
The ONLY thing that pays for sin is the shedding of blood. Suffering doesn't pay for sin or purify us. Shed blood does.
Purgatory CAN'T work because it's the wrong means.
He does not intercede to God but rather Abraham.
BOTH of them were dead. It's not like the rich man was still alive on the earth when he was talking to Abraham. So dead people in Hades can communicate with each other. That does not justify praying to dead people nor did Jesus use it as an example to support teaching such.
And do you remember Abraham's answer? He said *No*.
Excellent, bb.
That’s a keeper.
No, not ASSUMED.......KNEW.
No Catholic I ever knew read the Bible. It just wasn't done. And yes, the practice was discussed.
We were told by the church that we could not understand it.
Matter of fact, a guy I worked with who was a loyal KoC member, and faithful, mass attending, practicing Catholic, who also happened to be the biggest thief of goods and time from the company (and everybody knew it), chastised me for following the Bible. After hearing of an incident where someone was reported to have died after stopping her medicine because some *faith healer* told her she was healed, he comes over red faced, sticks his finger in my face, and says (not very nicely) *And THAT'S what you get for following the Bible!!*
HE had no use for it and it was nearly 30 years ago, not really all that long. I have no noticed an improvement in attitude amongst Catholics in that time.
Nor can you say that all Catholics read the Bible. Some may, but I have met only two Catholics in all my life who ever admitted to reading Scripture on a regular basis.
Maybe it's the people you knew??? I've read more bizarre things here that you people insist Catholics either do or don't do that I have never heard of. The funniest one is that we "don't" or are told not to read the Bible. Because y'all just know that somehow.
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