MegaChurch or Catholic Church?

taylormarshall.com ^ | August 26, 2013 | Dr. Taylor Marshall

[NYer]

Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.

Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance

I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.

Why the Megachurch?

When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:

1. “My new church has an iPhone app. I can go on my iPhone and get Bible studies, sermons (video and audio). When I travel I can still watch the sermon, either live or later. I feel apart of the community.”
2. “The preaching is dynamic and speaks to my life. I find practical encouragement.”
3. “I felt judged at the Catholic Church.”
4. “People were not friendly or welcoming at the Catholic Church. The first time I went to my new church, I was welcomed by so many people.”
5. “My new church has classes and courses that are interesting and helpful.”
6. “The music is better.”
7. “In the Catholic Church, they use a lot of words that I did not understand.”
8. “People pray for each other and know each other (in the megachurch).”

Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.

I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:

1. “There are not any crosses in my new church. I know it makes some people feel uncomfortable, but I wish we had crosses.”
2. “What will I do when I die?” They were both unclear about whether they could get anything like Last Rites at the megachurch.

What About the Eucharist?

I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”

This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”

“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”

I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.

The Problem

This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.

So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?

If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.

Godspeed,
Taylor

PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.

PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!

Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people

[SoothingDave]

I never denisd the 2 natures of Christ. I don’t know why you babble on about David.

I do know that you saying only the man Jesus died on the cross is seriously deficient. If only a man died, how does that repair the rift between man and God?

[SoothingDave]

It is a shame that there are not morw non-Catholics like you.

I have been told today that i am condemned and that i have denied the Holy Spirit because i hold a different opinion about things.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Sometimes it’s easy to assume overtones to words that never were intended.

The only FATAL blasphemy is that of refusing the gospel for all one’s earthly life, the window that God has established for believing. It is a special blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and sui generis.

Other blasphemies large and small are really only another way of saying sins. Trace it back to the Garden of Eden events and it becomes easy to understand. Embrace an evil spirit = be a sinner. Embrace God again for salvation (a fresh offer, not made in the garden) = be now a SAVED sinner. Jesus said all blasphemies (save the sui generis one, which equates to never embracing God for salvation) would be forgiven.

[SoothingDave]

Your ploemics do not change that what i said was true. Unauthorized translations that were used by heretics to lead people astray were forbidden.

We agree, except you add vitriol and untruths. Which 500 languges were the Bible in in 500 AD? Do you really believe that there were no literate people besides priests?

[HiTech RedNeck]

However we say it, whether in gentle words or harshly, the “official church” had embarked on non-Christian things. I look at the scene and boldly say, what ever happened to the gospel that a few centuries back sold itself so vigorously in a fully libertine milieu? It got WEAK, man. WEAK. And that was not a crisis of literary resources. It was a crisis of FAITH.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Hey, the rhetoric can get so hot here it obscures accuracy.

One thing which really has impressed me is the need for accuracy. Now I might not get everything right the first time, but I try to get it as right as possible.

In fact when I first became a believer, almost 25 years ago, that very impulse threw me on my spiritual rear almost immediately because I was doing it in the flesh. God was telling me through hard trials... no can do that. Got to do it in the Spirit. Now I’m charging out of the gate with that Lion of Judah in my heart and the trials (including the almost 30 years of unbelieving life before it which were very battering to me) were SO worth it. I am such an emphatic believer and yet I am an empathetic one. I still don’t get it all right, but God is still filing my sin down through many trials.

[Iscool]

I have been told today that i am condemned and that i have denied the Holy Spirit because i hold a different opinion about things.

I was just repeating what the bible says...

[CynicalBear]

>> Is Jesus God<<

Jesus is both fully man and fully the second person of the Trinity and is thus fully God as I have shown in the scripture passages I have posted.

>> is Mary His mother?<<

Mary is the mother of Jesus the man.

>> Simple questions. I would think you could answer them.<<

So you claim but have not answered any of mine. Nor have you produced any scripture for your position which was part of the agreement we initially started with. You have no scripture to support your position that is not corrected by scripture itself.

Now I ask you once again. Is David the father of God?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Actually, since Jesus is the son of Mary, son of David (and Bathsheba), son of Abraham (and Sarah), son of Adam (and Eve), then yes, all of these people, and all those other people in the genealogies are ancestors of Our Lord in the flesh. Thus Mary is the mother of God, and the rest are grandparents, great-grand-parents, etc. etc. --- of God.

Why? Because Jesus is God.

That doesn't mean they are "sources of the Godhead" or "older than God" or 'gods' themselves, or quasi-supreme-beings or any such thing. They are just finite creatures, made of dust. Jesus is infinitely superior to them, by virtue of His God-nature. "The Lord said to My Lord, sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool." David, Christ our God's father (ancestor), calls Him Lord.

Jesus has human ancestors going all the way back to Genesis, where God told the serpent that there would be "enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed" and we know who triumphs in the end!

So this is what you have to wrap your head around: that God is eternal, totally sovereign, the Creator of all things visible and invisible, including all human creatures, including of course all His ancestors, and that a human creature Mary, overshadowed by the power of the Holy Spirit, gave birth to a Son, who was (and is) God.

So that makes Abraham the Great⁴³ Grandfather of God. Yet Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word of the Father, rightly says "Before Abraham came to be, I AM."

[Iscool]

There is no trap here. I just think it is interesting that Scripture is preaching to Abraham. Do we have any other records that are older than the Old Testament?

That's kind of a vague question...The Old Testament isn't that old since it was destroyed and Jeremiah re-wrote it...

[CynicalBear]

>> The offering is once. The sanctification plays out over human time.<<

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath >b>perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Notice that word perfected. It does not say is perfecting but perfected, Already done forever. Do you not believe what the Holy Spirit said?

[CynicalBear]

>>If only a man died, how does that repair the rift between man and God?<<

Did God die on that Cross?

[HiTech RedNeck]

We do need to put this into proper perspective to be useful though. Rightly dividing the word of truth has an essential place... surely if anyone gets the need for this (even if fumbling sometimes) it is Evangelicals? ... yes, both Catholics (who are also personal believers) and Evangelicals DO blaspheme against the Spirit in various ways. That’s called being a sinner, albeit a saved sinner. We do well to fight against the spirits that tempt us to such blasphemies. The devil may not own us now, God being vastly more powerful in salvation than he through sin, but he still visits our life tugging at it until we are safe in heaven. It’s still God that is responsible for our salvation, thankfully. That is how the audacious promise “ALL THINGS work together for good for those who love Him — for those who are called according to His purpose” can be made.

[CynicalBear]

>>that i have denied the Holy Spirit because i hold a different opinion about things.<<

Not because you hold a different opinion. Because you deny what He said.

[daniel1212]

Again, is David the father of God?

Or should Mary's parents be called the grandparents of God?

At best it violates the continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture, and exalts Mary above what is written, and at worse it conveys that she is ontologically the mother of God. In regards to the first what even Ratzinger said concerning Co-redemptrix should be applied.

“Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” “Everything comes from Him [Christ], as their Latter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him. The word “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way. “For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.” Source

[CynicalBear]

>>I was just repeating what the bible says... <<

Feeling condemned by what scripture says is saying something I suppose.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you for the kind remarks, CynicalBear. You may have a knack for making these conversations a tad enjoyable :o)

I will be out ALL day tomorrow, from early in the morning: don-o and I will be at an All-Day Singing (Shape note singing) in one of these old-timey churches in Western North Carolina, in our Southern Appalachian habitat.

Not Catholic, y'know.

Probably pretty fundie.

But we sing together pretty good. Harmony is always --- I pray --- possible.

[HiTech RedNeck]

If it weren’t for Christ’s miraculous participation in the creation in the full trappings of a human creature, none of this could have taken place.

Yes, it does read like a children’s story. But what would you expect from a God who wants us to push our “grown up” prides aside and come to Him in love like little children? Oh, to love God like a child. I’m learning that again more and more, and not even Sigmund Freud or all the psychoanalysts who went after him could possibly work such a miracle of dealing with a life gone so wrong as mine. There are so many principles we believed as a child, I think, that were actually correct. But due to sin, we lacked, however, the faith in a specific God with specific promises to be an anchor to these principles, to give them purpose and direction, and so the principles either got discarded or distorted.

[CynicalBear]

>>So that makes Abraham the Great43 Grandfather of God.<<

No, it doesn’t.

I will repeat for you and others who may not have seen the post.

Mary is not the mother of God or David could be considered the Father of God.

“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:” (Luke 1:32) “And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?” (Matt 12:23) “And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.” (Matt 15:22) “And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.” (Matt 20:30) “And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.” (Matt 21:9) Christ Himself drew a line between the human nature and the eternal nature of Christ.

He also made it clear that God is not the son of David

“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46) [See also: Mark 12: 35-37, and Luke 20:41-44]

He has clearly established the fact that David is NOT the father of God, because he is NOT the father of the second person of the blessed trinity. He has clearly shown this distinction of natures to be a mystery.

Another indication of the distinct natures of Jesus.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

God didn’t give the “Spirit” to the second person of the Trinity He would have already been “one” with it.

The second person of the Trinity has neither beginning nor end. Jesus Christ the man died on that cross. The second person of the Trinity did not die nor can it die or be put to death.

David was NOT the father of the second person of the Trinity and neither was Mary.

[Mrs. Don-o]

" And that’s going to be the dance of heaven anyhow —
nobody else there will dance it for us
while we sit there inert,
we will ourselves dance it —
so why not start practicing it now?"

AMEN TO THAT!