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To: BlueDragon
Indeed, the Jews had their own reason to sneer at veneration of saints, for they believed the entire Christianity is a form of polytheism. Their concern about veneration of saints is logical, Protestant concern is not, since the Holy Scripture gives us ample examples of intercessory prayer, praiseworthy martyrdom, augmentatuon of abilities after death in a state of grace, and life eternal (see my #41)

Regarding the version, the same question can be put of the Holy Scripture. I gave the link to newagvent.org where I found the translation. Here is is again.

91 posted on 08/16/2013 6:06:48 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex
Huh? I show you how your argument fails, and then you shift the goal posts coming up with some other special pleading version?

Augmentation of abilities after death, in a state of grace? Ample examples? From where? The scriptures you cite don't do what you seem to be claiming, for none of them are any sort of example of "abilities after death". If memory serves...this isn't the first time you have cited those same scriptures, trying to use them in similar ways -- to which another then went through them, each in turn, going into detail of why they don't "work". Yet here they come again...

In the future...when claiming the fantastical--- bring the actual passages you speak of. I do hate wild goose chases...shoot...even the portion of MartPol which you cite, says nothing much about "veneration of relics". That sort of thing is a later "read between the lines" in effort to justify superstitious regard of objects --- which is said to not be worship, but only "veneration".

Otherwise...it is as "logical" for a "Protestant" (whatever those are) to object to praying to anyone other than the Father in Heaven --- for Christianity is much reliant upon what was revealed to the Hebrews. Or else God only gave them partial truths...was in effect only stringing them along, or playing games.

Praying to those whom have passed on hearkens back to pagan ancestor worship with a bit of Greco-Roman "hero" worship (they now be as gods) mixed in for "godly" measure.

Ancestor worship was widely practiced in Ur, which Abram was instructed to leave. Gilgamesh and others...having once lived and been kings or men of renown, once passed on, were then elevated to status of city-state "protector" --- and prayed to. Those minor gods, the "protectors", none of them singular God, were at times adopted by other city/state provinces. It's good to have more than one protector?...or to have differing kinds, sort of like modern physicians become specialists?

Looking around the world, of those places not in some way influenced by Hebrew religious thought (even if it be mainly by way of Christians) just WHERE is it which developed an actual monothesism?

In comparison;
Catholics have saints of this or that... lost things... hopeless causes...travel...what else? Pray to...I dunno, pick one -- St. Anthony --- and what will happen? Will two front teeth show up come Santa Claus Season?

Is God's arm foreshortened to such an extent he must now rely upon others to "give good gifts" to those persons He adopts as now His own children?

A rich daddy, eh? But too busy for the kids, so he has servants, hirelings, and "old family friends" do the fathering? ...And here I thought God was a Jealous God. He tells us that He is.

But now...we are directed to pray to "saints"? Even if it be said "not instead of, but also, and in addition to" praying towards the One true God --- it is still wrong. To the extent your "church" endorses the practice, your "church" is wrong. Just ask the Jews. I'll stand with them in this, before I'll stand with you, and do so without denying Christ on iota for having done so. My conscience in this is perfectly clear, perfectly at peace

Men and their imaginations, in their wishful thinking, have been mixing in extraneous worldly garbage into Catholicism for centuries. Which is a crying shame... for much else is or can be quite correct.

Why not just do as Christ directed? He did not direct anyone to pray even to his own person, but instead... to pray to the Father in his name. In the realm of prayer, why do anything else? Please...don't reply to me at all concerning the ideas you are trying to push, unless you answer that question.

Christ is attributed to have directly instructed us to pray to the Father, in his name. Nowhere in the NT do the Apostles (or Christ, either) instruct anyone to pray to anyone other than the Creator.

The newadvent link to MartPol doesn't do much. Besides... you seemed to have fully ducked the questions concerning it. Which version is newadvent relying upon? Not all versions are the same. There are some fundamental questions as to the historicity of the piece, too.

And --- you have not much said what you are trying to prove with it ---save for that which I have already shown to have been your own illogical opinion, which you seem to have been saying was based upon the part which you cited.

You have gone from; First--- the Jews started this opposition to praying to saints (which what you cited did not show, for the alleged objections of some Jews at that time concerning The "Jews" spoken of were along the lines of them thinking Christians might just go ahead and make another "Christ" out of the martyred Polycarp. In comparison --- no one had "bones" of Christ to "venerate". No clothes, no nothing (though some *stuff* showed up centuries later, but not bones)

Your reasoning comes across as;
Protestant can't speak against "polytheism" because Roman Catholics all but entirely indulge themselves in it. It could be said that RC'ers (some of them, anyway) DO in fact practice a form of polytheism, by claiming there are god-like powers and attributes spread around to those other than the Creator, with just some word-play and "special" definitions holding them back (if at all) from having portrayed these once living humans as having now joined the godhead. It's like there is God...and a bunch of junior rank gods. Just because in the RCC pantheon the "juniors" need be lesser than the One (big?) God, does not stop them from (according to RC theology) acting with god-like powers. Some RC'ers go as far to say Christ will not say "no" to Mary --- so plead with Mary, convince her how pious one is, or how much in need-- then she'll TELL Jesus what to tell the Father? ok -- this last part is not exactly spelled out in "official" teachings word-for-word as just described -- but human nature doubtlessly takes it that direction, it cannot be denied.

126 posted on 08/17/2013 5:53:24 AM PDT by BlueDragon (Post Tenebras lux)
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To: annalex

“augmentatuon of abilities after death in a state of grace”

What??!!

You people don’t even speak English!


1,277 posted on 09/12/2013 8:49:34 PM PDT by jodyel
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