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To: imardmd1
I've got a big patch of Swiss Chard in my front yard, where it looks so pretty with the red stems contrasting with the beautiful deep green of the leaves. It is my best "ornamental." I just had some chard for breakfast, in a frittata. Man, I feel almost peculiarly healthy. :o)

In the Bible, man was created first. Pretty clear from the text. But the other things you list are neither explicitly sated, nor are they logically proven from that fact.

For instance:

" a) the woman did not have anything in her that wasn't already in the first man's body"

Do you really believe that God made Eve from one white blood cell which He got from Adam, genetically modified, and "caused to multiply," meaning that a woman can be generated by breeding leucocytes? Come on. You can't make a zygote out of a leucocyte; and even if you could, you can't grow an adult out of a zygote without a maternal-placental support system or the equivalent. This is neither Biblically not biologically well-founded.

"Why could God not save the remainder of cells from Adam's "rib" from which to make a body for The Son to occupy in the fullness of time?"

Because Jesus would not then be the son of Abraham, son of Isaac, son of Jacob, son of David. His genealogy in Luke, at least, would be meaningless. He would not be a real Jew because he would not be the real, genetic child of His Jewish mother, Mary.

"Actually, I don't buy your arguments at all. I believe the Preserved and literal equivalency-translated Word of God, and your interpretation does not match up with that."

Not tobe a smarty-pants, but: same to you. :o)

"Thus, no matter how full of grace, willing, and obedient Mary is, any contribution from her sin-bearing body to Jesus' flesh body would bring death."

True, if she had a sin-bearing body. But she didn't. This is how God saw her: "Full of Grace." She was grace-bearing, not sin-bearing. She was Kecharitomene. As God's messenger proclaimed.

"But in Mary's womb, the placenta effectively isolates each from the other."

So it was believed, but erroneously. We now know about microchimerism (link) and other processes by which stem cells and other factors cross the placenta. Some of the mother's cells find they way into the gestating child, and some of the child's cells into the mother. Therefore, some of Mary's cells would be found in Jesus, and --- even more intriguing ---- some of Jesus' cells found in Mary! (Recent research shows that fetal stem cells help the mother's body repair damage. Something we moms can thank our kids for!)

"That is why I would not at all be surprised if Jesus, the last Adam, possessed a perfect body ab initio like that of the first Adam

Yes, He did. And He was the true child of Mary, according to the flesh.

Galatians 4:4
" But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law..."

"One might pause to consider the first and the last (hu)man Adams not only figurative in type, but literal in purpose...

I don't know it for a fact, but I consider it plausible that Jesus and Adam might have had an equivalence or near-equivalence on many levels, including genetic.

" What you seem to be saying is that with time and chance, somehow the perfect genetic combination will be found in a Jewish maid. Even supposing that hypothesis to be true, where is the matching male gamete coming from, eh?"

God could create that. Or are you saying He had one in storage somewhere, a whole prototype cell (haploid or diploid?) for the last-Adam's body? (Scratching head.)

" Grace to you, and peace, through stepping in the Light."

Same blessing back atcha! :o)

794 posted on 08/14/2013 9:04:26 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("No one on earth has any other way left but -- upward.” - Alexander Solzhenitsyn)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I don't know it for a fact, but I consider it plausible that Jesus and Adam might have had an equivalence or near-equivalence on many levels, including genetic.

You are in good company...



799 posted on 08/14/2013 10:11:35 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; imardmd1
"But in Mary's womb, the placenta effectively isolates each from the other."

So it was believed, but erroneously. We now know about microchimerism (link) and other processes by which stem cells and other factors cross the placenta. Some of the mother's cells find they way into the gestating child, and some of the child's cells into the mother. Therefore, some of Mary's cells would be found in Jesus, and --- even more intriguing ---- some of Jesus' cells found in Mary! (Recent research shows that fetal stem cells help the mother's body repair damage. Something we moms can thank our kids for!)

I went to the link you provided and read the Wikipedia article concerning the microchimerism link and, though I am no medical expert, I don't think it means exactly what you imply it does. According to the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchimerism:

    Microchimerism (abbreviated Mc) is the presence of a small number of cells that originate from another individual and are therefore genetically distinct from the cells of the host individual. This phenomenon may be related to certain types of autoimmune diseases; however, the mechanisms responsible for this relationship are unclear.

    In humans (and perhaps in all Placentals) the most common form is fetomaternal microchimerism (also known as fetal cell microchimerism or fetal chimerism) whereby cells from a fetus pass through the placenta and establish cell lineages within the mother. Fetal cells have been documented to persist and multiply in the mother for several decades.[1][2] The exact phenotype of these cells is unknown, although several different cell types have been identified, such as various immune lineages, mesenchymal stem cells, and placental-derived cells.[3] The potential health consequences of these cells are currently unknown. One hypothesis is that these fetal cells might trigger a graft-versus-host reaction leading to autoimmune disease. This offers a potential explanation for why many autoimmune diseases are more prevalent in middle-aged women.[4] The other main theory is that fetal cells home to injured or diseased maternal tissue where they act as stem cells and participate in repair.[5][6] It is also possible that the fetal cells are merely innocent bystanders and have no effect on maternal health.[7]

    After giving birth, about 50-75% of women carry fetal immune cell lines. Maternal immune cells are also found in the offspring yielding in maternal→fetal microchimerism, though this phenomenon is about half as frequent as the former .[8]

    Microchimerism had also been shown to exist after blood transfusions to a severely immunocompromised population of patients who suffered trauma.[9]

    Animal[edit source | edit]Microchimerism occurs in most pairs of twins in cattle. In cattle (and other bovines), the placentae of fraternal twins usually fuse and the twins share blood circulation, resulting in exchange of cell lines. If the twins are a male-female pair, the male hormones from the bull calf have the effect of partially masculinising the heifer (female), creating a martin heifer or freemartin. Freemartins appear female, but are infertile and so cannot be used for breeding or dairy production. Microchimerism provides a method of diagnosing the condition, because male genetic material can be detected in a blood sample.[10]

    Relationship with autoimmune diseases and breast cancer[edit source | edit]Microchimerism has been implicated in autoimmune diseases. Independent studies repeatedly suggested that microchimeric cells of fetal origin may be involved in the pathogenesis of systemic sclerosis.[2][11] Moreover, microchimeric cells of maternal origin may be involved in the pathogenesis of a group of autoimmune diseases found in children, i.e. juvenile idiopathic inflammatory myopathies (one example would be juvenile dermatomyositis).[12] Microchimerism has now been further implicated in other autoimmune diseases, including systemic lupus erythematosus.[13] Contrarily, an alternative hypothesis on the role of microchimeric cells in lesions is that they may be facilitating tissue repair of the damaged organ.[14]

    Moreover, fetal immune cells have also been frequently found in breast cancer stroma as compared to samples taken from healthy women. It is not clear, however, whether fetal cell lines promote the development of tumors or, contrarily, protect women from developing breast carcinoma.[15][16]

I do not get the impression that this exchange of certain cells between mothers and their offspring is either as common or widespread nor as beneficial as stated. Something you say mothers should thank their kids for can turn out to be not such a good thing when autoimmune diseases are caused more often than facilitating tissue repair or when tumors are promoted instead of prevented. It sounds as if the jury is still out on this relatively new subject of biology.

816 posted on 08/14/2013 5:38:09 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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