Posted on 08/05/2013 10:31:02 AM PDT by Gamecock
Question:
Does the OPC use the crucifix in the church? If not, are they opposed to it?
Answer:
Thank you for your question. The answer is, so far as I know, the crucifix is not used in OPC churches, and here is why:
1.The Second Commandment (Ex. 20:4-6 and Deut. 5:8-10) forbids any picture or image of God, and that would include the Son of God, even as man. At any rate we do not know what Jesus looked like as there is no physical description of him.
2.The crucifix will always end up being an object of worship—regarded as holy. History teaches as much. The bronze serpent Moses made became an object of worship and was not destroyed till King Hezekiah did it (Numbers 21:9; 2 Kings 18:1-5). Roman Catholics have worshipped it, kissed it and held it to have mystical powers.
3.Christ did not remain on the Cross. In the Roman Church Christ is said to be resacrificed each time the Mass is celebrated. This is heresy; he died once for all—Hebrews 9:25-28.
We in the OPC have learned not to trust our idolatry prone hearts not to do the same as others have in the past. Hence, no crucifixes are used. So, yes, we are opposed to it.
He said “I am that Bread.”
my Greek txt (Mark) didn’t have kaine. but I didn’t check the apparatus. I’ll look more carefully when I get home — if the thread hasn’t died. I did wonder....
We don't have a clue but you do, right??? And you're going to keep it a secret...
How about your straw hat becomes a banana...
Calvin absolutely rejected the Eucharist as the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ and in doing so sided with the GNOSTICS as opposed to the Apostolic Faith believed always and everywhere. indeed, nothing new under the sun.
You don’t have any clue what you’re talking about. Transubstantiation is not a historical doctrine. Even Jesus, who ate the bread and drank the wine, which you say was his own flesh and blood, called it what it was.
Please don’t ping me with silly assertions I’ve refuted with other posters.
http://www.e-sword.net/support.html
It is free, and you can get a lot of free versions, commentaries, etc. I find it quite useful. I also have an ancient Logos Bible Software v. 1.6 that I like.
Hmm, great questions. hopefully posting this quote from Clement, a man who labored side by side with St Paul and learned the Faith at the feet of St Peter and St Paul,will make some realize the Apostolic Faith was not only taught and conveyed by the written word, but the oral teaching of the Apostles was also considered the Word of God and was just as authoritative and binding as the written word. Sola Scriptura was unheard of in the Apostolic age, in fact, it was unheard of until the 16th century. Clement is faithfully conveying the Apostolic Faith learned directly from the great Apostles Peter and Paul. The same Apostolic Faith which has been handed down in the Church for 2,000 years. Those who believe and confess the Apostolic Faith know exactly what Clement is teaching, those outside of the Faith are clueless as to what he is saying. Clement, whose name is written in the book of life along with his teachers in the Faith taught offering an oblation, i hope those outside the Faith will pray for the grace to understand and believe the Faith Clement received from the great Apostles, which has been handed down to us today.
i am sure you have chapter and verse to back up your “silly assertion” that says Jesus ate the bread and drank the wine?
my friend, i don’t say it’s His own flesh and blood. Jesus said “This is my Body”, can you give me chapter and verse where Jesus ever said “ This REPRESENTS my Body”?
I will keep believing the Apostolic Faith believed by Paul, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement, Cyprian, Cyril, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, Augustine and Thomas. the Gnostics rejected this Faith in the second century and those that deny the gift of God reject it today and perish in their disputes. Nothing new under the sun.
“i am sure you have chapter and verse to back up your “silly assertion” that says Jesus ate the bread and drank the wine?”
Already posted. It sent Mrs.Don-o running. You’re welcome to give it a shot yourself, but please don’t just repeat what she said. It’s so annoying when people just keep repeating themselves.
“You don’t have any clue what you’re talking about.”
Mind reading, eh?
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.
Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.
In English:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen
LOL, i read your post and it’s a giant fail. The Bible does say anywhere that Jesus ate the bread, nor drank the wine AFTER HE BLESSED IT. again, your assertions make for colorful reading, but aren’t backed by Scripture.
as to whether the truth that the Eucharist is the Body of Christ is historical or not, i will point any late comers to the thread to read post 65 and for extra credit, research what the following churches who broke from the Catholic Church, teach about the Eucharist:
Chaldean Catholic Church - broke away 431ad
Oriental Orthodox Church - 451ad
Eastern Orthodox - 1054ad
Their Bibles must not say “This REPRESENTS my Body” either.
For all of historical Christendom - the Body and Blood of Our Lord has been a central mystery. The few who deny that Truth are flat out heretics, they have simply lost all sense of Grace and Truth. Pity them and pray for them, as they have no way to know their error absent God’s free Grace.
woops, post #194 should read “ does NOT SAY” Please insert the word NOT, but all the Bible students here know the Bible does not contain any verse that says Jesus ate the Eucharist, nor that He drank His blood.
Well, “they” certainly aren’t alone in attaching all sorts of things to the “list”, but we should be aware of the many tricks the enemy of men’s souls has in his bag that can cause the gospel one preaches to become “accursed” and of no effect. Anytime someone adds to the finished work of Christ things that they MUST do to either merit or keep salvation, then we can know that is NOT the true gospel. We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith and NOT of ourselves, lest anyone should boast.
I have both of those too. Great resources. My version of Logos was so old I still had the 3.5 inch floppies. Whose got a 3.5 inch floppy drive anymore? Just upgraded a year or two ago. Well worth it, but the look and feel is quite different and took some getting used to.
Thanks for your selections supporting your hypothesis. They are also the ones which I had in mind when appealing for words to finish that chorus in the hymn. please note that I was not rejecting the hymn--just one phrase. I feel that the hymn leans just a bit toward elevating the object at the expense of the Teacher who accomplished His Saving Work on it. The word "cross" in the passages you chose is a metonomy for the gospel proceeding from the sacrificial murder carried out on it, not the actual object or nminiature symbol of it.
As an observation:
"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world" (Galatians 6:14).
The operative referent here is Christ, indicated "by whom," not "by which." Paul glories in the gospel of Christ's ministry leading up to and away from the significant Good Friday event, not the object itself.
The next two verses are seen likewise. The adoration is not toward the torture device itself, but of the news of which its symbolism is attached.
Lastly, Jesus was not asking that we drag around 300-pound piece of wood, nor even a little symbol of it on a neck chain. I believe his disciples certainly did not know yet what the gospel nessage was going to be. No, rather He is figuratively speaking of the persecution that identifying with Him was already bringing, a burden yet light.
The chorus of this hymn strongly suggests to me, and for most literal-minded people, of adoring the cross itself on a par equivalent level with the Savior Himself, and even valuing it as to trade it in for another object, a crown symbolic of nothing else but my own achievements in forwarding His interests. As such, I reject this whole last line, a mistake of the author of overusing poetic license to undercut basic doctrine of applying the Second Commandment:
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" (Ex. 20:4-5).
Furthermore, I do not have any mistaken artist's image of a long-haired handsome male supposedly representing Jesus in my home, nor of any other heavenly person or object; nor wear or display any other symbolic object to claim affiliation with Him. Rather, My affiliation might be seen by going out and making disciples, should he recognize and bless that occupation.
Neither would I take two objects made by man, let someone place them before me, claim that they are invested or wholly subsumed by Christ's Person and Presence, and bow myself in adoration before them.
But thanks for your concern --
Jesus used as an object lesson the things that were right at hand. If you read the beginning of John 6, Jesus had fed five thousand people with five small rolls of bread and two little fish (it was after all what a boy brought along for his meal). The miracle was that after he had fed all those people he had twelve baskets full of bread left over. The next day, the same crowd went over to the other side of the lake to Capernaum looking for Jesus (knowing a "meal ticket" when they found one!). Jesus knew why they followed after him and this dialog went on:
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
“Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
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