Posted on 08/01/2013 8:41:18 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
I espouse the view that salvation is not dependent on millennialism of any sort. The premillennial view discounts the suffering of the saints. Creating a linear timeline of events based on Revelation is rather hard since the narrative is split into at least two distinct points of view (heavenly and earthly) that are not correlated in time. I believe that God preserve His remnant throughout the ages.
John inquires about “a great multitude” (6:9) and the angel responds that “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation…” (6:14) Then, the Beast from the Sea is “given power to make war with the saints and overcome them.” (13:7) and 14:12-13 continues with “Here is the patience of the saints… Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” Then, the Millennial Kingdom is populated by “souls who had been beheaded for their witness… who had not worshipped the beast or his image.” (Rev 20:4) This does not indicate to me those who were raptured away before the tribulation.
I have studied Revelation in many contexts, and my view is that the first chapters are pretty clear and there’s a reason for that. Hebrew scholars interpreted the prophecies of Christ quite differently than we now understand, and the nature of man hasn’t changed. Revelation is not about winning a get-out-of-the-Tribulation-free card any more than the Christ’s First Coming was about defeating Rome.
I do believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom, but beyond that, I reserve judgment because I do not find disputes on interpretation edifying. When events happen, then we shall know. To me the message of Revelation is clear: be prepared for Christ’s return; whatever the circumstance. Even so, Come Lord Jesus!
Thanks foro your reply. As I said, I’m not dogmatic about this point, and it’s always interesting to consider other views.
Rats....
And I forgot my IBTZ
My “source” is Torah, which I see more as God and Man centered without involving those “Luciferian” aspects that are also attributable to God alone.
I believe that when God said, “I alone am The Lord”, he meant it. I also think that God’s principal demand of us is that we act decently toward each other.
As for Jesus, even without divinity, he was moshiach (the messiah) in that the United States could never have been founded without his influence.
AMEN!
“As for Jesus, even without divinity, he was moshiach (the messiah) in that the United States could never have been founded without his influence.”
Without divinity, Christ could not have been the Messiah, as He claimed to be God, and all His Apostles regarded Him as God. If He is not God, then He is a liar, and a madman, or a wizard.
nor did I, All I did was lump the subjects together to introduce the idea that this generation has a hard time with the whole category of subjects. For the title I shorthanded “Hell” but the article explains that I mean Hell, punishment, and the wrath of God.
The fear of the LORD of the saved is not the same fear of the LORD that the unsaved ought to have, but do not, because the god of this world has blinded them.
What say you that group is, the "we" to whom these verses refer?
While that has supremacy for you, i would think you also would look to the rest of the Hebrews Scriptures, and together they clearly portray the devil as a malevolent being, opposed to God and His own, being as Jesus said, a liar and a murderer, who comes to steal, kill and destroy, even though God makes what he does to works for the good of those who love God.
In self will he first asserted, in the first "occupy movement," that "I will be like the Most High," (Is. 14:14) that God should “share the wealth,” that of His position and glory, but which to a lesser degree true believers will be rewarded with. (Rv. 3:21)
Next, consistent with above attempt, he sought to instil in Eve his the victim-entitlement mindset, that Eve was not being dealt with fairly by the solitary restriction placed on Adam and her by their Father, to whom the devil attributed selfish motive God. (Gn. 3)
Under this ethos those who have a moral right to wealth, in what ever form it is, are to divest themselves of it to share it with those who demand it regardless of lack of merit, and as a pretext to dishonor and eliminate those who t oppose them, even if they actually are fit for position and power, and to exalt their own unworthy and lustful selves.
And we can see how successful the devil has been in instilling this via the modern deleterious liberal ideology of today, with 60's radicals taking over administration buildings, to actually becoming the administration.
The devil also evidenced jealously over Job blessing God and being blessed, and sought to bring Job to act contrary to the former by doing contrary to the latter. (Job. 1+2)
And likewise the devil was provoking Hanna to doubt God's love for her because her womb was barren. (1Sam. 1:5)
The devil also seduced Israel to worship demons as did the pagans, to their own hurt, rather than the living and true God who had shown Himself strong on their behalf. (Ps. 106)
And demons seem to be involved in the council described in 1Kg. 22:19-23, of a laying spirit sent to deceive Ahab.
Thus whatever similarities you see with paganism as regards the devil, he is revealed as a real being and demons as real entities.
As for Jesus, even without divinity, he was moshiach (the messiah) in that the United States could never have been founded without his influence.
A political Messiah is much what the disciples supposed Him to be at first, but came to realize He was the lamb without spot who " was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. " (Isaiah 53:5-6)
If He was not, then there would have been no resurrection power, and no real Christian faith as the foundation for America.
Then we should get back to the Biblical understanding that “hell” is not a place of punishment but simply the common grave.
You must consider four principles to avoid problems in interpreting the Holy Scriptures:
A. Normal interpretation is basic.
This letter is to be read exactly as it is written, unless you are told to take it in some other way. The normal interpretation is plain literal, or obvious, interpretation. You are trying to read something into it other than what is written ("on another level") which is not that which is meant, and thus getting into argumentation.
B. Literal interpretation is normal.
Literal interpretation contains both plain literal language asd also figurative-literal language. Many people (and your approach here) fail to distinguish btween the terms, literal language and literal interpretation.
Figurative and/or allegorical interpretation is not normal.
This approach requires both literal and figurative language and lays an opinionated meaning (metaphorical, symbolical, or figurative) upon what is said or written in Scripture, and thus thrusts the interpreter on shaky ground which cannot be resolved by debate.
C. There Is Only One Primary Interpretation.
Scripture has but one meaning. There is only one primary interpretation to which all context lends itself. It applies directly to (a) those addressed, at (b) some specific timeindicated, and (c) must have a specific meaning for them. In light of this, it can be applied to us under similar conditions which exist relative to those conditions prevailing in the context. There possibly may be several secondary applications, but there is only one primary interpretation. There is one specific, intended meaning.
D. There Is One Single Sense
Every statement of Scripture has only one sense (an example is the sense of Isaiah 53:5 as used in 1 Peter 2:24)
One rule is that when the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. (To do otherwise distorts.) Again, the grammatical sense is the simple, direct, plain, ordinary, and literal sense of the words, phrases, clauses, and sentence (in both surrounding as well as general context).
Quoting William Tyndale, a gifed translator of our English Bible: "Thou shalt understand, therefore, thast the Scripture hath but one sense, which is the literal sense. And that literal sense is the root and ground of all, and the anchor that never faileth, whereunto if thou cleave thou canst never err nor go out of the way. And if thou leave the literal sense, thou canst not but go out of the way."
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(The above is my slight adaptation of the discussion found in "HERE'S HOW! The Bible Can Make Sense To You Today!" by Dr. Fred Wittman, Morris Publishing (2000) pp. 26-28)
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What I am saying about the article of this discussion is that I would strongly advise that no one take your recommendation to regard The Apokalupsis to be taken as a difficultly understood allegory. Actually, it is a revealing of The God's Will, not a concealment of it! And the reader should take it that way! If you don't understand something as plainly literal, don't make an allegory of it! Don't seek a "higher" level! Higher? False, probably.
While I didn't get to see post 13, let me guess. I suspect it probably stated what an tyrant God is to us for slapping Him in the face. Sure...He's the tyrant all the while we use His name in vain, make jokes about him and foolish believers, rejects His morals, etc. Then we complain when God floods the world or rain coals on our heads just so He can protect the place from OUR own evilness. We complain about why God let disasters strike us when all the while people start returning to church. We fail to see all the beauty of God in the world around us and His constant call and compassion for us.
And let's have a moment of truth. We know very well we're sinning.
Like the city of Nineveh, people will from time to time repent of their wickedness. They do not necessarily turn to God but they moderate their sinful behavior. But we can push God only so far. What we are seeing around us in today's society is a failure of people wanting to modify their behavior. One hundred years after the city of Nineveh repented, they were back to their old tricks and were destroyed. Failure to live at least by God's commands is God giving us up to ourselves and final destruction.
LOLOL!
And one of His disciples, when all was said and done, ended up exclaiming to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
So sad but so very true. Thank you for sharing your testimony, insights and those beautiful Scriptures!
You do understand this was a parable as Jesus’ own experience shows.
I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to say, CYC. The point of the article is that this generation has had a hard time grasping ultimate punishment for a variety of reasons. I fully understand that there are times when Hell means the grave, but in Jesus story of the rich man and Lazarus,(I don’t know if it was a parable ), Jesus revealed that Lazarus was in a place of torment, and “from hel”l he called upon Abraham. BTW, I usually write in series format and develop these themes over several messages.
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