Posted on 07/26/2013 3:22:28 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
You wrote:
“My understanding is accurate. Didn’t Mary in that “vision” rush to save that man from Jesus, who was “about to condemn him to hell” on the basis of Demonic accusations, until Mary rushed in to put her rosary on the scale and save him from death?”
1) What vision? It is a story, a pious story. Show me where it is acknowledged by the Church to be a miraculous vision. Show me the official teaching that says this happened.
2) Even as a pious story all that it would mean is that prayer can be efficacious. (James 4:2; 5:16) The Rosary has always been recognized as a very efficacious prayer.
3) As a didactic story is it any different than Exodus 32:14 NASB; Jeremiah 26:19 NASB; Amos 7:1-6 NASB? (By the way, read Numbers 23:19 ESV or Malachi 3:6 and reconcile those verse with the verses which I gave you at the beginning of this paragraph; I can. Can you?). It amazes me how little Protestants know about the Bible.
“So who is the real savior here? Certainly, not Jesus, nor His blood shed on the cross.”
No, Jesus is the real Savior. But Jesus uses His saints to accomplish His will all the time. He will even use them as fellow judges of the damned at the end of time. (Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 6:2).
“It was Mary and her rosary.”
It was Jesus working through His mother just as He works through all His saints whenever He wills.
Thank God for men like Chiniquy who believe God who says, "Come, let us reason together." - Isaiah 1:18. There is no reason in Mary worship - only an unwillingness to examine the Truth of the Word and have to deny a lifetime of fearful indoctrination.
No one is going to read your ridiculously long cut-and-paste job. Try reading the Word of God and performing the courageous act of asking God (not Mary) to open your eyes to its meaning.
You wrote:
“No one is going to read your ridiculously long cut-and-paste job.”
I bet some already have read it.
“Try reading the Word of God”
Already have an frequently do. Just this summer, since I am only working 8 or 9 hours a day rather than the 8 to 14 I often work from 9 months of the year, I have purchased at least four new Bibles and about a dozen commentaries - almost all on the Old Testament. I did manage to buy all three volumes of Fr. Ronald Knox’s New Testament commentary about which I am very excited. Just today I got to eat lunch with a friend of mine who was once a Protestant minister and now a fervent Catholic. We spent a good portion of lunch talking about the Song of Songs. Gee, what did talk about over lunch today?
“and performing the courageous act of asking God (not Mary) to open your eyes to its meaning.”
Already did, and He already did. That’s why I’m not Protestant.
You should know the rules by now. If you want to refute something, don’t make it personal.
“1) What vision? It is a story, a pious story. Show me where it is acknowledged by the Church to be a miraculous vision.”
The Secret of the Rosary is a compilation of visions/stories written by a man reckoned as a Mystic and a Saint, and its teachings are embraced, promoted, and even, in the past, decreed by order of the Pope to perform them.
“It would be impossible to name all the many Saints who discovered in the Rosary a genuine path to growth in holiness. We need but mention Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort, the author of an excellent work on the Rosary,([The Secret of the Rosary]) and, closer to ourselves, Padre Pio of Pietrelcina, whom I recently had the joy of canonizing. As a true apostle of the Rosary, Blessed Bartolo Longo had a special charism. His path to holiness rested on an inspiration heard in the depths of his heart: “Whoever spreads the Rosary is saved!”.(13)” (APOSTOLIC LETTER ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY AND FAITHFUL ON THE MOST HOLY ROSARY)
Furthermore, the Rosary is not merely a “prayer” that is “effacious.” It is a way to be saved. The most useful way to get help from heaven is through praying Mary’s Rosary, as your Popes confess themselves.
“(By the way, read Numbers 23:19 ESV or Malachi 3:6 and reconcile those verse with the verses which I gave you at the beginning of this paragraph; I can. Can you?).”
Certainly I can, but the question is, what does it have to do with Mary saving people from the wrath of Jesus on the basis of wearing rosary beads? I would have to say, absolutely nothing.
So back to the problem, why is there a scale depicted with good and evil works being weighed against each other, waiting for Mary to rush in and place the Rosary beads which weight more than all the evil works and good works put together? Do you believe that is true? Do good works merit heaven, and evil works merit punishment, as if Christ did not die on the cross so that our sins could be forgiven?
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
If saying and promoting the rosary ‘saves,’ on what basis does it save? Is there merit in saying the Rosary so often that flowers start to come out of your mouth? Does saying the Rosary give Mary a rose to place on her head, as the Secret of the Rosary teaches, so that you can earn her advocacy wherein she pleads not the blood of Jesus... but the number of rosaries you say? You say that Christ is “working through his saints.” It’s more like Mary, here, is working to save people from Christ.
““No one is going to read your ridiculously long cut-and-paste job.”
I bet some already have read it.”
I actually didn’t even read it. I just thought, ‘God help me, look at this stuff jamming up my Pings.” So I just picked the first line t quote, and brought it back to Chinquy’s sermon on Mary which indeed reflects actual Roman Catholic teachings.
Too bad your limited vocabulary didn't allow you too comprehend the contents of the Missal. In the ensuing time you haven't evolved one iota.
Behind every double standard lies an unconfessed single standard.
“The thing that baffled me the first time I attended a Catholic church as a youth, was, I couldn’t figure out how they conducted services without bibles”
As you sit down in the pew, look directly ahead of yourself at the back of the pew in front of you. The book you see there, behind every seat in the pew, is the Bible. Have a great day.
You wrote:
“The Secret of the Rosary is a compilation of visions/stories...”
Which is it? Be precise.
“... written by a man reckoned as a Mystic and a Saint, and its teachings are embraced, promoted, and even, in the past, decreed by order of the Pope to perform them.”
Decreed by order of the Pope to perform them? What do you mean? Who must perform them?
“Furthermore, the Rosary is not merely a “prayer” that is “effacious.” It is a way to be saved”
In itself, no.
“The most useful way to get help from heaven is through praying Mary’s Rosary, as your Popes confess themselves.”
I have no idea what you mean by “useful”. The Mass is the most powerful prayer. Even a woman claiming to receive an apparition of Mary in 2002 said that Mary said, “The Mass
is the greatest prayer of God.” I put no stock in apparitions which have not been fully vetted in any case. http://littlemary.excerptsofinri.com/messages/single/02-2002/2281-bvm-0218-2002.html
“Certainly I can, but the question is, what does it have to do with Mary saving people from the wrath of Jesus on the basis of wearing rosary beads? I would have to say, absolutely nothing.”
And you would be right since wearing Rosary beads is not only not proper but does nothing of any value since it’s not even a prayer.
“why is there a scale depicted with good and evil works being weighed against each other, waiting for Mary to rush in and place the Rosary beads which weight more than all the evil works and good works put together?”
Because, like the verses I showed you and which you are ignoring (of course), it shows the power of prayer.
“Do you believe that is true?”
That prayer is powerful? Yes, of course.
“Do good works merit heaven, and evil works merit punishment, as if Christ did not die on the cross so that our sins could be forgiven?”
Christ died to forgive our sins. We are all still deserving of Hell. No one deserves Heaven. It is a gift. Our evil works condemn us. Our good works in Jesus’ name, under His grace, bring us merit through the generosity of God. No one saves but Jesus, however. And what helps us to realize that and strengthen our relationship with Him is prayer and meditation - and the Rosary is both.
“If saying and promoting the rosary ‘saves,’ on what basis does it save?”
Grace. All salvation is by grace. When Peter says “water now saves you” in 1 Peter 3:21 he means the grace of Christ in baptism. When we develop a deep relationship with Christ through prayer and meditation and contemplation we further open the channels of grace with our Lord.
“Is there merit in saying the Rosary so often that flowers start to come out of your mouth?”
Is there merit is fasting? Yes. Is there merit in almsgiving? Yes. Christ expects us to be Christ-like. He expects us to be united with Him in charity and prayer.
“Does saying the Rosary give Mary a rose to place on her head, as the Secret of the Rosary teaches, so that you can earn her advocacy wherein she pleads not the blood of Jesus... but the number of rosaries you say?”
Sometimes I think Protestant anti-Catholics are just dumb: 1) on the one hand the seem so idiotically stupid that they can’t understand things that others have no difficulty understanding at all, 2) they are dumb enough to believe that they can easily fool other people into being dumb as well. Here is what De Montfort actually wrote:
“The word Rosary means “Crown of Roses,” that is to say that ever time people say the Rosary devoutly they place a crown of one hundred and fifty -—three red roses and sixteen white roses upon the heads of Jesus and Mary. Being heavenly flowers these roses will never fade or lose their exquisite beauty.”
Note: 1) The crowns are for Jesus AND Mary, not just Mary. 2) this is clearly just a metaphor about how prayer glorifies God and His greatest creation - the saints - specifically Mary.
Now, here is another passage written by Montfort, one which you would never quote which shows how he honors the Precious Blood of Christ AND sees the Rosary as a way of doing it:
“The holy sacrifice of the Mass gives infinite honor to the most Blessed Trinity because it represents the passion of Jesus Christ and because through the Mass we offer to God the merits of our Lord’s obedience, of his sufferings, and of his precious blood. All the heavenly court also receive an added joy from the Mass. Several doctors of the Church, including St. Thomas, tell us that, for the same reason, all the blessed in heaven rejoice in the communion of the faithful because the Blessed Sacrament is a memorial of the passion and death of Jesus Christ, and that by means of it men share in its fruits and work out their salvation.
“Now the holy Rosary, recited with meditation on the sacred mysteries, is a sacrifice of praise to God for the great gift of our redemption and a holy reminder of the sufferings, death and glory of Jesus Christ. It is therefore true that the Rosary gives glory and added joy to our Lord, our Lady and all the blessed, because they cannot desire anything greater, for the sake of our eternal happiness, than to see us engaged in a practice which is so glorious for our Lord and so salutary for ourselves.”
By the way, did you notice the end of the first paragraph:
“all the blessed in heaven rejoice in the communion of the faithful because the Blessed Sacrament is a memorial of the passion and death of Jesus Christ, AND THAT BY MEANS OF IT MEN SHARE IN ITS FRUITS AND WORK OUT THEIR SALVATION.”
Means of what? The PASSION AND DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST.
“You say that Christ is “working through his saints.” It’s more like Mary, here, is working to save people from Christ.”
Nope. Again, “It is therefore true that the Rosary gives glory and added joy to our Lord, our Lady and all the blessed, because they cannot desire anything greater, for the sake of our eternal happiness, than to see us engaged in a practice which is so glorious for our Lord and so salutary for ourselves.”
Being ignorant in the information age is a deliberate choice. You can always do better than to choose poorly.
As I said in another post:
Being ignorant in the information age is a deliberate choice. You can always do better than to choose poorly.
Was that always true even in the 1950s and 1960s, in all Catholic churches?
LOL, you crack me up. Grumpy seems to be a permanent state.
“... I couldn’t figure out how they conducted services without bibles”
The Apostles managed to worship and teach without New Testaments. I guess you would have been baffled for much of the first century too.
“The Bible is divinely-inspired sacred Scripture that Almighty God has preserved and will preserve forever”.
You’re right there. But you left out it was Catholics that God was talking to and He told Catholics what He wanted in the Bible and what He wanted left out. It has always amazed me how PROSTESTants love to run the Catholic Church down and say the Catholic Church does not teach the Word of God, when it was Catholics that gave them the Bible. You can’t have it both ways. If you want to slam Catholic Church then quit reading the Bible, which is a Catholic document.
There would be as many as 52 Gospels in your canon of scripture without the Church that Jesus started.
But post 31 says that the bibles are there during mass.
Catholicbridge.com seems to support what I saw about the absence of bibles, I know that I didn’t see people carrying their own into church, and I don’t recall seeing them in back of the pew as you mentioned.
(2) Bible reading earlier this Century
question- I did not grow up Catholic but I’ve interviewed dozens of older Catholics, and ex Catholics, including those who now go to Evangelical Churches, to try to gain an understanding of the charge that Catholics weren’t allowed to read their Bibles in the 1930’s - 1970’s.
answer- It is true that earlier in this century, in some Catholic circles, people were not encouraged to read their Bibles.
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