Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt

New York Times ^ | July 20, 2013 | LAURIE GOODSTEIN

[Not gonna take it anymore]

In the small but cohesive Mormon community where he grew up, Hans Mattsson was a solid believer and a pillar of the church. He followed his father and grandfather into church leadership and finally became an “area authority” overseeing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout Europe

When fellow believers in Sweden first began coming to him with information from the Internet that contradicted the church’s history and teachings, he dismissed it as “anti-Mormon propaganda,” the whisperings of Lucifer. He asked his superiors for help in responding to the members’ doubts, and when they seemed to only sidestep the questions, Mr. Mattsson began his own investigation.

[Elsie]

We are Doctrinaly and theologically at odds, with far too many Christians giving LDS a pass and thinking Mormons are Christians too.

It ain't 'thinking', but accepting what they've been told.

Any two small brain cells rubbing together would create enough interest to actually find OUT what MormonISM teaches.

But; even armed with THOSE facts; a 'christian' would STILL be at a loss if they do not know what CHRISTIANITY teachs!

[Elsie]

Ya beat me to it!

[Elsie]

Everybody hates Mormons.

EVERY one?

Even those who MARRY one and they, themselves, ain't MORMON?

[Elsie]

Everybody hates Mormons.

 

If you have cable TV, there won’t be much on to watch.

 

 

 

 

If there isn’t much on to watch, you will answer your door whenever someone rings.

 

 

 

 

If you open your door, you will see mormons.

 

 

 

 

If you talk to mormons, they will trick you into “praying about whether something is true”.

 

 

 

 

If you rely on your feelings, you may become a mormon.

 

 

 

 

If you become a mormon, you will have to wear magic underwear!

 

 

 

 

If you wear magic underwear, people will immediately label you as a cultist.

DON’T be a cultist!
Get DirectTV.

[Elsie]

...that The Holy Ghost witnessed to them...

Well; SOMETHING sure did; but I can guarantee you that they did NOT do the TEST that JS said to use!!

---

 Doctrine and Covenants       Section 129

 

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, 9 February 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished (see History of the Church, 5:267).

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones;
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear;
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

       Joseph Smith

[Elsie]

It took me decades to realize that all religions are based on myths and designed to do 2 things, control the masses and take your money.

No WONDER it took 'decades'; for that is an AWFUL lot of religions to research!!

[caww]

Cleary your comments indicate you have limited understanding of Mormonism, and for that matter likely as much concerning the Christian Faith. Otherwise you could not make such comments.

I do hear often, and understand, there is a large scale movement worldwide of ‘the crowd’ clamoring, “Let's all just get along”, it flies under the banner of the New Age Spirituality and comes in many shapes and sizes...basically one size fits all. There is no such thing...but people today are ripe for deception.

Mormonism is not a Religion, as it calls itself, it's a successful organization, much like Scientology and others like it who mask as one...and this to make merchandise of it's members....let alone keeping them in bondage to a false sense of security by being members of that organization.

It's deceptive, and it's tactics are clearly brainwashing and fully meet the requirements of a counterfeit Christianity....using just enough of “borrowed” terminology to make it “appear” Christian...when it is a huge deceptive program to put people in bondage....by doing so keeps them from the true Biblical Christ of Salvation.

[CommerceComet]

Those are the money shots for sure - a daughter’s burning in the bosom and a coincidental phone call are irrefutable proof. I might have to check out this Mormonism thing. ;-)

[Colofornian]

there's less and less of "us" and more and more of them...and yet, we still love to bash in a whole community of people who have decent morals and believe in marriage, children, work ethic....

ALL: You know, Obama & his thugs overreach, thinking they can almost become "gods" of our lives...

Temple Mormons overreach, thinking they can become "gods" of their own worlds that they populate.

(Sounds to me like you have the "us" and "them" quite confused, especially considering that Romney was more liberal than JFK...and was "Obama lite" with his pro-abortion stances, his RomneyCare, etc.)

[Colofornian]

And to get back to the very nature of this NY Times piece:

* Here's what Greetings_puny_humans posted in Nov 2010:
Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Saints

* Here's what I posted in an article in August 2012 (scroll down to link: The Swedish Rescue):
'Spiritual Olympics' Series (S.O.S.): A Glimpse of Mormonism Around the Globe [Vanity]

This shows the "major crisis" Swedish Mormons underwent, as described by this Swedish Mormon in this NY Times piece.

[Elsie]

Temple Mormons overreach, thinking they can become "gods" of their own worlds that they populate.

WHAT??!!??

You GOTTA be kidding!!

---

The Doctrine and Covenants

 

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 

---

 

 16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in ^amarriage; but are appointed angels in ^bheaven, which angels are ministering ^cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

 17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are ^aangels of God forever and ever.

 18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that ^acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

 19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man ^amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and ^beverlasting covenant, and it is ^csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of ^dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ^ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit ^fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s ^gBook of Life, that he shall commit no ^hmurder whereby to shed innocent ⁱblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their ^jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the ^kseeds forever and ever.

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from ^aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be ^bgods, because they have ^call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my ^alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

 22For ^astrait is the gate, and narrow the ^bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the ^clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

 23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that ^awhere I am ye shall be also.

 24This is ^aeternal lives—to ^bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath ^csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

 25^aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the ^bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they ^creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

[svcw]

You don’t know anything about mormonISM do you?

[Graybeard58]

Atheist, noob, troll, “GETONBOARD”, zotted at #28

[svcw]

Who hates mormons?

[svcw]

That’s odd Beck said on tape he only converted because his wife refused to have sex with him. There is a video in YouTube

[Colofornian]

PLEASE NOTE: THIS POST, THO IT RESEMBLES my last post...is distinct from it

From the article: Is it true that Smith took dozens of wives, some as young as 14 and some already wed to other Mormon leaders, to the great pain of his first wife, Emma? About that last question, Mr. Mattsson said, “That was kind of shocking.” Mr. Mattsson said he sought the help of the church’s highest authorities. He said a senior apostle came to Sweden at his request and told a meeting of Mormons that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that, once it was published, would prove all the doubters wrong. But Mr. Mattsson said the promised text never appeared, and when he asked the apostle about it, he was told it was impertinent to ask. (Mr. Mattsson refused to identify the apostle, but others said it was Elder L. Tom Perry, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Elder Perry, now 91, confirmed through a church spokesman that he did visit a branch in Sweden with skeptical members, but said he recalled satisfying their questions with a letter written by the church’s history department.) That encounter is what really set off Mr. Mattsson’s doubts. He began reading everything he could. He listened to the “Mormon Stories” podcasts. And he read “Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling,” a biography by Richard Lyman Bushman, a historian at Columbia University and a prominent Mormon. Mr. Bushman said in a telephone interview: “You would be amazed at the number of Mormons who don’t think Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. It just wasn’t talked about. It was never mentioned in church periodicals. That was policy.”

10th Lds 'prophet' Joseph Fielding Smith defends eternal polygamy jumpstarted by his great-uncle [Joseph Smith's]

Joseph Fielding Smith was a "prophet" of the Mormon Church...in the late 1950s into the early 60s, he wrote a 5-volume question-and-answer style series entitled Doctrines of Salvation.

I've read all 5 volumes. Volume 2 was published in 1979 by the Deseret Book Co. -- a company DIRECTLY owned by THE Official Mormon Church.

In chapter 26, Joseph Fielding Smith takes on question related to Eternal Marriage.

In his response to a topical question on that matter, Joseph Fielding Smith says:
"This marriage was not intended to be broken" [by death], "and the idea of death and an eternal separation never entered into it. Unfortunately in the great apostasy which swept over the earth, the words of the Lord to the Pharisees" [Matthew 22:2331 and in Luke 20:27-38] " were misinterpreted because the spirit of revelation had ceased. Therefore the Christian world, Protestant and Catholic, has fallen into this fatal error." (Vol. 2, p. 119)

Questions, then...for Mormons:

* Why are your 'prophets' accusing us of committing 'fatal errors' re: marriage, especially when Jesus clearly said marriage wasn't for heavenly purposes?
* If the Protestant and Catholic view of heaven includes being ONE JOYOUS FAMILY living in perfect unity, how is the Protestant Catholic view 'anti-marriage' or 'anti-family'??? "Fatal error" as your 'prophet' claims??? (IOW, won't we all be together if indeed we are as members of the same earthly family all saved?)
* In fact, isn't it Mormons who say "exaltation" (the highest kingdom in heaven) is NOT 'family-based'
-- IS individual-based (see Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 5, p. 169)
-- & therefore WILL be breaking up marriages and families all according to where they will "land" in the 3 "glories" of Mormondom?
* Doesn't 2 Cor. 11:2 say, properly allegorized, that the apostle Paul "promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him"?
* And...don't passages like Matt. 9:15, Matt. 25:1-10, John 3:29, & Rev. 18:23 all reference Jesus as the "bridegroom?"
* And don't MANY passages (Eph. 5; Rev. 18:23; 19:7; 21:2, 9; 22:17) reference the universal church as the "bride of Christ?"
* Have these NO eternal meaning AT ALL about a promised spiritual intimacy between Christ, the Bridegroom, and His Church????

***********************

Since this "eternal knowing" Jesus IS intimate, but spiritual & not sexual, why do Mormons both neglect these Biblical verses + insist upon having an eternal substitutionary spouse?

(I mean, WHO REALLY could 'top' Jesus Christ?)

[ejonesie22]

How long will it take for you to figure out you were banned from FR?

I hope you can figure out there is a God much quicker...

[Colofornian]

From the article: Is it true that Smith took dozens of wives, some as young as 14 and some already wed to other Mormon leaders, to the great pain of his first wife, Emma? About that last question, Mr. Mattsson said, “That was kind of shocking.” Mr. Mattsson said he sought the help of the church’s highest authorities. He said a senior apostle came to Sweden at his request and told a meeting of Mormons that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that, once it was published, would prove all the doubters wrong. But Mr. Mattsson said the promised text never appeared, and when he asked the apostle about it, he was told it was impertinent to ask. (Mr. Mattsson refused to identify the apostle, but others said it was Elder L. Tom Perry, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Elder Perry, now 91, confirmed through a church spokesman that he did visit a branch in Sweden with skeptical members, but said he recalled satisfying their questions with a letter written by the church’s history department.) That encounter is what really set off Mr. Mattsson’s doubts. He began reading everything he could. He listened to the “Mormon Stories” podcasts. And he read “Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling,” a biography by Richard Lyman Bushman, a historian at Columbia University and a prominent Mormon. Mr. Bushman said in a telephone interview: “You would be amazed at the number of Mormons who don’t think Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. It just wasn’t talked about. It was never mentioned in church periodicals. That was policy.”

Lds 'prophet' Joseph Fielding Smith defends his great-uncle's [Joseph Smith's] polygamy

Joseph Fielding Smith was a "prophet" of the Mormon Church...in the late 1950s into the early 60s, he wrote a 5-volume question-and-answer style series entitled Doctrines of Salvation.

I've read all 5 volumes. In Volume 4, it went thru its 7th printing in 1979...and was originally published by the Deseret Book Co. in 1963 -- a company DIRECTLY owned by THE Official Mormon Church.

In chapter 42, Joseph Fielding Smith takes on THIS question related to the earliest polygamy practiced by Joseph Smith and the earliest Mormons:

Representatives of Jehovah's Witnesses called at my home and endeavored to disprove statements in the Book of Mormon. Among other things they claimed there was a discrepancy between Jacob 2:24-27 and Doctrine and Covenants 132:39. It was also their contention that the doctrine of plural marriage was condemned in the Book of Jacob and that the practice of this principle IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE CHURCH was not only a contradiction of Bible doctrine of also of the Book of Mormon. Will you please give answer to this problem? (p. 212)

At the bottom of the next page (p. 213), Joseph Fielding Smith has a heading, "There is No Contradiction" -- and on p. 214, Joseph Fielding Smith cites Jacob 2:30 from the Book of Mormon as "proof" of "no contradiction":

For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up SEED unto me, I will command my people...

So...claims this Mormon "prophet"...This -- seed-raising -- was THE so-called "purpose" for these (mainly) EARLY Mormon LEADERS practicing polygamy from...
...the early 1830s...when Joseph Smith started fooling around with young teen Fanny Alger...
...to the early 1840s when a few OTHER Mormon leaders began following Joseph Smith's plural-wife taking lead...
...[And I note: Based upon Joseph Fielding Smith's response, the Utah polygamy years -- 1846 thru the rest of the 19th century -- would be quite "debateable" to toss in here as "relevant" to the question the Mormon "prophet" was answering...see more on this below]

So. Since Joseph Smith was told to be practically THE ONLY Mormon to practice polygamy for that first decade (1831-1841 or so)...here's the $Million question behind this post:

How much "seed" (posterity) did Joseph Smith "raise" among these "extra wives?"

ANSWER: NONE, despite taking on an additional 26 wives or so...MOST of whom were taken on 1841 thru early 1844.

It's likely at least one Smith child was miscarried when first-wife Emma Smith booted a pregnant plural wife down some stairs...beyond that...

"Though there were allegations of paternity in some of these polygamous marriages, no children have ever been proven to be Smith's. There is ongoing genetic research to determine if any descendants of alleged children have Smith's genetic markers, and so far all tests have been negative." [Source: Children of Joseph Smith]

WELL, a Mormon might counter...perhaps the Mormon god was talking more about the seed to be raised by Mormons over a 40-year period (roughly 1850s to early 1890s)?

Well, for those who might contemplate that, there's two HUGE problems to that "theory"...

HUGE PROBLEM #1

The direct response Joseph Fielding Smith gave thru the OFFICIAL Mormon Church publishing house in 1963 related to a specific Jehovah's Witness challenge re: "the practice of this principle IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE CHURCH..."

Those "early days" in the church were the upstate NY, the Kirtland, Ohio, the Missouri, and the Nauvoo, IL years -- when polygamy was being introduced ...[NOT the Utah years]

HUGE PROBLEM #2

And besides, even for those who would like to include the first, say couple dozen Utah years into this "early mix" of the POLY Church of Mormon...those controversial Brigham Young-led years...please note this 2011 Indiana University article.

While I disagree with this study's evolutionary crap injected by this university that "sainted" pedophile champ Kinsey, indeed the simple math involved from this study is born out:

Polygamy practiced by some 19th century Mormon men had the curious effect of suppressing the overall offspring numbers of Mormon women in plural marriages, say scientists from Indiana University Bloomington and three other institutions...Simply put, the more sister-wives a Mormon woman had, the fewer children she was likely to produce...."the number each wife produced goes down by one child or so..."

What's so curious about that? Brigham Young had 55 wives & 57 children...figure the averages...Joseph Smith, Jr. had children in single-figures -- perhaps ALL from his FIRST wife...27 wives...11 of them he stole from other men by marrying them when they were already married! (Not only was he a counterfeit "prophet," but a counterfeit husband and counterfeit "seed-raiser" as well!)

How interesting.

All of this is contrary to common myth:
Actually, 19th and early 20th century Mormon polygamy resulted in less children per mom, not more!

So why would some conclude that it's more natural to have less kids??? [Unless, of course, you're anti-child Planned Parenthood types]

*********************************

Question then: If Joseph Smith was told to 'raise up seed' ...

...via polygamy,

...why has the OFFICIAL Mormon church

...thru OFFICIAL 'seer-prophets' of the church

...defended Smith's polygamy

...by citing the "raising up seed" purpose of polygamy

...as quoted in the Book of Mormon?

AND, this seems to be highly suggestive...

...that a Mormon god

...who lacked ANY foresight that ANY such seed would actually come to be born

...is no 'god' at all

...and MUST IMMEDIATELY be dumped for THE ONE TRUE ULTIMATE GOD!