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To: Repeat Offender
"If the saints answered prayer there would never be any reason to pray to God. God and God alone answers prayers. God is omnipotent; not saints. All power comes through God and no one else."

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As many posters have already said, Catholics do not believe that saints answer the prayers, but rather that they act as a "go-between" between other human beings and God, presenting their prayer requests to God in a better way.

God often chooses mere human beings to act as "go-betweens" in the communications between God and other human beings, and anyone who would deny that would be foolishly and willfully ignorant (and wrong).

For example, did God choose to write the books in the Bible with His own finger (as He easily could have), or did God always choose in His Sovereign Divine Power to always make use of mere human being go-betweens to write every single word and book in the Bible, every single time, combining the inspiration of God with the actual physical writing of a mere human being "go-between" for the entire Bible, in order to communicate with us?

If God does choose to use mere human beings to speak to us through them (such as in the written books of the Bible), then God is obviously NOT adverse to using mere human being go-betweens in God's communications with other human beings, and actually often chooses to communicate that way (via a go-between human being).

461 posted on 07/14/2013 10:31:50 PM PDT by Heart-Rest (Good reading ==> | ncregister.com | catholic.com | ewtn.com | newadvent.org |)
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To: Heart-Rest
God often chooses mere human beings to act as "go-betweens" in the communications between God and other human beings, and anyone who would deny that would be foolishly and willfully ignorant (and wrong).

MY question is WHY would HE need to do that?

503 posted on 07/15/2013 6:02:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Heart-Rest; Biggirl; JCBreckenridge
As many posters have already said, Catholics do not believe that saints answer the prayers, but rather that they act as a "go-between" between other human beings and God, presenting their prayer requests to God in a better way.

Completely unScriptural. No need for a saint to do this. In fact the Scriptural revelation to Paul is that the Holy Spirit does this for us.

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The Holy Spirit even makes intercession for the saints......why would we want the saints to intercede for us? The answer is we wouldn't because there is no need to. The saints even have their hearts searched because they can't "do it in a better way." Praying to the saints is a false belief that they have more power than they actually have and puts others (some perceived saint) in front of God the Father.

Yes, God did chose humans to spread his Word and divulge Scripture via the Holy Spirit.

God often chooses mere human beings to act as "go-betweens" in the communications between God and other human beings, and anyone who would deny that would be foolishly and willfully ignorant (and wrong).

Was that strawman difficult to build? Throughout Scripture, this is demonstrated - thoroughly. However, nowhere does it say anything about praying to a saint (ie an individual in Heaven) - which is the topic at hand.

If God does choose to use mere human beings to speak to us through them (such as in the written books of the Bible), then God is obviously NOT adverse to using mere human being go-betweens in God's communications with other human beings, and actually often chooses to communicate that way (via a go-between human being).

Now, did Jesus say pray to the saints, or did He always say to pray to the Father? As in directly to the Father?

Throughout Scripture, the prophets and Biblical patriarchs prayed either directly to God, or asked a flesh and blood minister (prophet, priest, friend) to pray for them. There is not one Biblical reference of praying to a saint or anyone in the Kingdom of Heaven other than God.

Jesus was given to us to atone for our sins, and to confess/intercede on our behalf. There is no reason for a saint to do this. Why would God send his only begotten Son to intercede for us if a saint's intercession would suffice?

He provided us the law to show us what sin was, to keep His chosen people Holy (through deed, spirituality, diet etc) in preparation for the Messiah, and to show us that we need Him. He provided His prophets and the patriarchs to lead and instruct the people in the flesh. Jesus as a fisher of men, attracted the Apostles to bear Witness and document the Gospel.........there is no need for any saint or go between other than Jesus. Jesus is supposed to be our example of a Christian life.

...and even Jesus deferred that when you pray, pray thus "Our Father..." or "to the Father." Never, 'dear Saint suchandsuch, please ask God to...." Now, we are instructed to pray for one another, pray for the sick, the widow, the fatherless, etc.....but this is our earthly duty and the prayer is to "Our Father," it still doesn't say pray for each other and ask some saint to pray also.

We can pray directly to God the Father, and our only needed or directed intercession siteth on the Right Hand of God the Father in Heaven - the only begotten Son.

Praying to a saint or needing a Heavenly intercession other than Jesus is not Scriptural. In fact, it goes against Biblical teachings that Salvation and Heavenly intercession are through Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone.

Matthew 11:25-27 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Pretty apparent that it is only through the Son. The Son knows the Father. The Son reveals the Father. The Father through the Son. Still doesn't ay anything about any saints.

Christianity is not a chose your own adventure novel where you get to pick the wording and arrange things to mean what you want.

686 posted on 07/15/2013 6:30:05 PM PDT by Repeat Offender (What good are conservative principles if we don't stand by them?)
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