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Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?
catholic-convert ^
| July 11, 2012
| Steve Ray
Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?
A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…
Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints cant do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!
Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?
An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the dead in Christ are those saints who have physically died. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thess 4:16).
THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE JESUS ALONE DOCTRINE. From some peoples point of view, people who have died are classified as dead saints, who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people dont want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, JESUS ALONE fails. If the so-called dead saints do anything then it is not JESUS ALONE, but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called dead saints are in fact not dead, but alive with God.
Dead or in paradise?
HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly dead saints who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no dead saint because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants
HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says Jesus is the god of the living. However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; He is not God of the dead but of the living.
- “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).
Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as dead saints.
Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?
WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than dead saints who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called dead saints; not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.
SORRY LEONARD
YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument. He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun (Eccles 9:6).
When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the persons soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?
How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?
Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet (Kings 13:20-21).
Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It cant be much clearer than that!
The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ
JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE DEAD SAINTS. Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.
“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?
This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that dead saints cant do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.
So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?
TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic; deadsaints; doctrine; prayer; scripture
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To: JCBreckenridge
Pick any name you wish, but do not dishonor Peter with that putrid pagan title.
641
posted on
07/15/2013 4:39:43 PM PDT
by
editor-surveyor
(Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
To: metmom
Elijah didn't die, but there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that he can do anything from heaven. So now he is in heaven which is (according to your warped theology) in space. Did you make the claim that a living body can't with stand the ravages of space. You change your story like I change my socks.
642
posted on
07/15/2013 4:39:56 PM PDT
by
verga
(A nation divided by Zero!)
To: Alex Murphy
“The name of the church I attend is (unfortunately for you) specific enough in name, that IMO neither you nor the government have any legitimate need to know.”
“you put on heavy planks on others that you yourself are unwilling to bear”....
643
posted on
07/15/2013 4:42:12 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: editor-surveyor
So you don’t know who the first pope? Cool beans!
644
posted on
07/15/2013 4:42:56 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: aMorePerfectUnion
“I said it wasnt a Christian practice”
According to whom? You?
645
posted on
07/15/2013 4:43:42 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
The only disputes are amongst those who attempt to go back to legalism. Those of us who have been set free by Christ have no disputes other than with those who try to enslave us to legalism.
646
posted on
07/15/2013 4:44:59 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
To: JCBreckenridge
>> When did the Catholic church form?<<
LOL Which catholic church? The Roman Catholic Church? The universal (catholic) church?
647
posted on
07/15/2013 4:47:59 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
To: Iscool
>>CynicalBear belongs to the same assembly as I do... <<
Those who are carnal minded will only understand when its too late I fear.
648
posted on
07/15/2013 4:49:44 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
To: GeronL
that is just ridiculous to me So you don't have a single friend? I can believe that.
649
posted on
07/15/2013 4:50:40 PM PDT
by
verga
(A nation divided by Zero!)
To: CynicalBear
Sure, we’ll go with the Roman Catholic church... when do you believe it formed?
650
posted on
07/15/2013 4:52:30 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: JCBreckenridge
There is no office of pope in the body of Yeshua.
You may choose whom you wish from the remainder of the genus of man.
651
posted on
07/15/2013 4:55:43 PM PDT
by
editor-surveyor
(Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
I have no clue what youre talking about or what youre trying to dispute. Im sure its only something that makes sense in your own mind. Have someone with an IQ over 60 read it an explain it to you.
652
posted on
07/15/2013 4:56:49 PM PDT
by
verga
(A nation divided by Zero!)
To: JCBreckenridge; CynicalBear
The “roman catholic church” was formed when the pagan emperor Constantine outlawed the worship of Yeshua HaMassiach, and the observance of his feasts, and appointed December 25, the supposed birthdate of Mithra or Tammuz, as the birth date of his false messiah, whom he gave the pagan title of “cristos,” which means man who became god.
653
posted on
07/15/2013 5:04:44 PM PDT
by
editor-surveyor
(Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
To: editor-surveyor
“formed when the pagan emperor Constantine”
[[citation needed]]
654
posted on
07/15/2013 5:06:01 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: verga; Greetings_Puny_Humans
I doubt that anyone with an IQ over 40 would attempt to understand one of your assertions.
655
posted on
07/15/2013 5:06:53 PM PDT
by
editor-surveyor
(Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
To: Heart-Rest
>>This obviously conflicts with the words of Jesus in Luke 6:23 about some of the dead -- "your reward is great in heaven".<<
What part of more do you not understand? Once someone passes from this earth they earn no more rewards. No conflict whatsoever.
>>Does "all" there really mean "all"?<<
You must note there that he is talking of the works of man.
Ecclesiastes 1:3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
All the works of man are vanity. Not terribly difficult of you actually read in context. Your next questions about Christ are scurrilous. Christ was not just a man.
656
posted on
07/15/2013 5:09:12 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
To: JCBreckenridge
If you need background for spiritual growth, I would suggest beginning with reading “The Two Babylons” by Alexander Hislop.
It is the only complete and accurate revelation of the doctrine and basis of the “Roman Catholic church.”
657
posted on
07/15/2013 5:10:38 PM PDT
by
editor-surveyor
(Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
To: Arthur McGowan
>>So, you use Ecclesiastes against Jesus Christ<<
Not if you understand the verse in context which Catholics are evidently incapable of.
658
posted on
07/15/2013 5:11:30 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
To: NYer
Nice cut and paste! Im sure you just forgot to give attribution right? Surely you didnt want us to think you wrote that did you?
659
posted on
07/15/2013 5:14:37 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
To: editor-surveyor
“The Roman Catholic Church has knowingly incorporated paganism into its beliefs and practices.”
“The representation of Mary as Mother of God is based upon pagan beliefs.:
“The RCC doctrine of the Trinity is pagan in both its origin and definition.”
“The RCC is a revival of the Babylonian religious system - specifically, the worship of Nimrod and Semiramis.”
“The ornaments, symbols, rituals and images of the RCC are borrowed from pagan idolatry.”
“The RCC is Satanic.”
You agree on all these points?
660
posted on
07/15/2013 5:17:05 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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