Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[NYer]

Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?

A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…

Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints can’t do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!

Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?

An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, “Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the “dead in Christ” are those saints who have physically died. “For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16).

THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE “JESUS ALONE” DOCTRINE. From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people don’t want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, “JESUS ALONE” fails. If the so-called “dead saints” do anything then it is not “JESUS ALONE,” but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called “dead saints” are in fact not dead, but alive with God.

Dead or in paradise?

HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly “dead saints” who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no “dead saint” because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants

HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying “Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead” in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says “Jesus is the god of the living.” However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; “He is not God of the dead but of the living.”

• “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as “dead saints.”

Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?

WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.

SORRY LEONARD…YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, “As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument.” He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (Eccles 9:6).

When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the person’s soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?

How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?

Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). “Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet” (Kings 13:20-21).

Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It can’t be much clearer than that!

The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ

JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE “DEAD SAINTS.” Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.

“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?

This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that “dead saints” can’t do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.

So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?

[.45 Long Colt]

Am I the only one who has noticed just how sensitive Catholics are about their religion? Don’t joke about papa pope or cast doubt on their saints or their traditions lest you hurt their feelings. I’ve had comments and private messages letting me know how upsetting my comments were. Well, the truth is I will never kneel and kiss the slippered toe of the pope and pretend to accept and respect their system as merely another branch of the Christian tree. But why do they even want or need me to?

I could care less what any man thinks of my local congregation, my pastor, the Christians of yesteryear I am fond of, or the doctrines I hold dear. They can say men I am fond of like Huss, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Edwards, and Spurgeon were heretics (and they have) and it just rolls off my back. Frankly, I don’t even care what they think of The Lord Jesus Christ because the opinions of another have no impact on what I know to be true. The Lord has been and remains very real in my life. I wish everyone believed the truth and I am sad for those who don’t, but I need no outside affirmation whatsoever. Opinions of men cannot sway me. When others mock and reject they confirm His Word. I fully expect the world to reject the great truths of Scripture. I’m not going to take it personally when they prefer religious traditions of men over the Jesus Christ who came according to the Scriptures and the gospel of his free and sovereign grace. I don’t take it personally when I encounter someone trapped in apostate religion who thinks I am going to hell without their particular voodoo, whatever it might be.

If I die today and go to hell it will be because of my sin and my lack of belief, not because I rejected the pompous potentates of Rome who bind the consciences of men.

[Elsie]

But they partake in eternal life, so they are alive.

Then just WHO is going to RISE FROM THEIR tombs and the end?

ZOMBIES?

[metmom]

Well said.....

[metmom]

If they hated Him, they will hate us.

Look at the way the Pharisees treated Jesus and you’ll see some pretty amazing parallels to how modern day religionists treat His followers.

[daniel1212]

After moving, I am going to an SBC church , and the SBC's Executive Committee can be contacted via telephone by calling (615) 244-2355. But calling on Prots to ID what church they go to in order to attack them is no relevant to as it is with RCs, as we are NOT promoting a particular church as elite and supreme to whom all are to submit.

FReepers do not see daily articles on what Fred Luter Jr said or did, and that Baptists alone were worthy of the title "church," but this is a RC practice, and then some complain when challenged, and some seem to long to the "good ol days" of the Inquisitions with all its means of making sure Rome is not challenged.

[daniel1212]

I sometimes tire of responding to the same old same old... so I appreciate your thought and effort even more.

I understand, thank God for His l o n g suffering.

[presently no screen name]

Not playing.....

Never play with the children of the dark - they are living under deception not truth.

[daniel1212]

esus gives quite a few examples of prayer. In the Lord's Prayer He provides us the instruction that when we pray - it is to "Our Father." At no point is there ever a reference to praying to any saint. Moses, David, Abraham, Solomon, Daniel, Elijah, Ezekiel - all prayed to God. Never to a saint.

But RCs do not derive their doctrines from Scripture, but in condescension to evangelicals Scripture is appealed to by RCs trying to make her traditions look Scriptural, which here has further exposed their unScriptural nature.

[piusv]

Excuse me, but pointing out that your posts are rude and belittling doesn’t necessarily mean my itty bitty feelings are hurt. It means your posts are rude and belittling.

[.45 Long Colt]

Indeed. There are also interesting parallels between Israel at the time of Christ and Rome today. Everytime I read that passage toward the end of Romans 9 about Israel I think of Rome.

30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

[piusv]

Maybe I misinterpreted the reason for the question (granted it’s tough to keep track of 500+ post threads), but I got the impression that the reason why you and other protestants were asked what church you belonged to was because the Bible says that the Church is the pillar of truth (versus the Bible).

[daniel1212]

I’m thankful for all I learned in the Catholic Church in my youth. I feel blessed to have been “born on third base”.

When i became truly born again at age 25, due to Holy Spirit real conviction and repentance, thank God, then even nature seemed new to me, and i appreciated things that were Scriptural in Rome. And thus evangelicals manifest a shared and more fervent contention against those who deny basic truths both concur with, due to their Scriptural warrant. But likewise they contend against traditions which are a product of sola ecclesia, which Rome shares with most cults.

[xzins]

The real question is whether the dead in Christ are living or dead. The next question is whether they are now missioned or whether they are, during this interval of awaiting the return of Christ and the fulfillment of all things, awaiting a future mission .

Christ fairly clearly answered the first question, when he said, "He is not the God of the dead but of the living." when he argued for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being currently alive. God had said, "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." not "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Jesus used the verb tense to clarify that the deceased in the Lord are only deceased "here" and not in their relationship with God.

Now we come to the sticky question: "Are the deceased missioned or simply awaiting the consummation?"

Scripture is suggestive:

Hebrews 11: Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God

Does the above verse mean merely that we have examples from the past, or does it mean that we are LITERALLY surrounded by these Witnesses...that they VIEW what we do?

From Revelation we read the following:

Revelation 22: 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

Revelation 19: 9 Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." 10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

In the above verse, is the "Angel" a former, glorified Christian, for he says "I am a fellow servant with you...who hold to the testimony of Jesus?" Jesus did say, "Matthew 22:30 NIV At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

If the angel is a former Christian, now glorified, then believers are given Mission/Work to do and are not just "awaiting the consummation" in heaven.

Matthew 17: 1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

In the transfiguration stories in the gospels, we again see the "deceased in the Lord" being ACTIVE and not passive. Moses and Elijah are "discussing with Jesus". That is clearly INVOLVED and not out of the picture.

We could also put up Jesus' story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and in it we see a direct question about the deceased being used to deliver a message to those living on earth. Jesus said essentially that such a thing would be a waste of time, because those who should receive the message would not listen. He did NOT say "That's impossible because the deceased are not able to perform missions." Instead, He simply pointed out that they wouldn't listen "even if one rose from the dead."

This, however, is connected to the mission of Elijah. We just saw Elijah talking to Jesus with Moses, so there is a real, living Elijah.

Matthew 11:9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written: " 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.' 11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

This passage either indicates that Elijah will not return again, or it indicates that John the Baptist is a type of the return of Elijah, a greater fulfillment of which is yet future.

The two witness of Revelation 11 also suggest that the deceased are missioned, since these witnesses are those who "stand before the Lord". They are not identified. Many have speculated that they are: Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John, or some other figures from the past people of God. I'll not identify them, since that isn't the point here. The point is that they are from "God's realm" and they can enter "this realm" and they have a mission.

Rev 11: 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

So, we have seen that their is a thin separation between the world in which Moses and Elijah live and this one. We have seen that those folks can be missioned.

Can they hear us and see us?

The bible says about young children that "their angels behold the face of God. Matthew 18:10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

This suggests that individual angels are guardians, that they see what transpires with little ones, and that they report to God.

So, if they see what transpires, then it is possible that they are seeing you now.

And, if it is appropriate for them to listen, then it's appropriate for us to talk, but as the angel told John, "Worship God."

If someone is now listening, I'd like them to pray to God with me about my extremely ill, 3 year old grandson. Pray to God with me that he will be healed of the cancer that is ravaging his tiny body.

Was what I just did "worshipping" a real being who might be paying attention, or was it no different than asking you to pray with me?

[Alex Murphy]

Maybe I misinterpreted the reason for the question (granted it’s tough to keep track of 500+ post threads), but I got the impression that the reason why you and other protestants were asked what church you belonged to was because the Bible says that the Church is the pillar of truth (versus the Bible).

Not to worry - it's a long-running argument that's been dragged across threads for months. And I may have missed it, but I don't recall that explanation ever being offered for the question before.

[.45 Long Colt]

I have made very straight-forward comments about my bible-based beliefs that no one would interpret as rude or belittling only to receive comments and messages letting me know I had hurt someone’s feelings. That’s what I was referring to.

Now on occiasion I probably have been rude and belittling toward apostasy. Maybe I will outgrow it. Having the spine to call a spade a spade is not sinful, though I’m sure I need to work on telling the truth in love.

[daniel1212]

Does an All-Powerful God have enough power to choose to enable some of His creatures to hear as many prayers as God wants them to hear, or does an All-Powerful God NOT have enough power to enable that?

You are employing a spurious hermeneutic. Doctrine is not based on what God could do, which cults like Mormonism partly argue from, but what He states He does or will do. And thus the question is, why did the All-Powerful God not provide even one example among the multitudes of prayers in Scripture of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or in any instructions on who to pray to in Heaven, while also manifesting a division btwn the 2 realms so that personal communication btwn created beings from each sphere required both to be in the same place, versus talking to angels or saints in heaven from earth.

[.45 Long Colt]

I should have also mentioned that all who believe we are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone live under the continuing anathemas of Rome. Nevertheless, adherents to Rome believe we should respect their religious system.

[Elsie]

...the Bible says that the Church is the pillar of truth...

Nope: the Living GOD is.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Placemarker

[reminder to self: check to see if steelfish posted any evidence that praying to departed saints was practiced before 100ad - evidence defined as documented sacred writings, artworks, secular writings of history, etc.]

[piusv]

...the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Nice try, but "pillar and ground of truth" is referring to the subject "church", not "living God" in the prepositional phrase "of the living God".