Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[NYer]

Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?

A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…

Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints can’t do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!

Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?

An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, “Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the “dead in Christ” are those saints who have physically died. “For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16).

THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE “JESUS ALONE” DOCTRINE. From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people don’t want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, “JESUS ALONE” fails. If the so-called “dead saints” do anything then it is not “JESUS ALONE,” but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called “dead saints” are in fact not dead, but alive with God.

Dead or in paradise?

HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly “dead saints” who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no “dead saint” because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants

HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying “Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead” in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says “Jesus is the god of the living.” However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; “He is not God of the dead but of the living.”

• “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as “dead saints.”

Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?

WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.

SORRY LEONARD…YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, “As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument.” He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (Eccles 9:6).

When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the person’s soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?

How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?

Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). “Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet” (Kings 13:20-21).

Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It can’t be much clearer than that!

The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ

JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE “DEAD SAINTS.” Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.

“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?

This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that “dead saints” can’t do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.

So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?

[daniel1212]

You got it.

[daniel1212]

Which Bible? Can you tell me, infallibly?

No magisterium of men possessed assured infallibility whereby they established writings as Scripture, nor was one needed, but these were essentially established as Scripture due to their enduring Divine qualities and attestation. Otherwise the church could not have established its truth clams upon Scriptural substantiation. Likewise, men of God were manifest as being so even if the religious powers that be rejected them. Otherwise there would be no church, as contrary to the Roman model, it began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses.

The next logical question is, How do we know that the Catholic Church is infallible? The Bible tells us so. The Bible calls the Catholic Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth." But, up to this point, I have created a circular argument.

While you can attempt to bring souls to submit to Rome by arguing history, etc. provides warrant for this, yet the actual premise by which the Catholic has assurance is circular, as that the Bible tells us the church of Rome is infallible is an interpretation, but which she has infallibly rendered to be the only possible correct interpretation by interpreting, or rather declaring, herself to be infallible.

Simply by examining history, we see in the Catholic Church an unparalleled earthly institution, in terms of organization and continuity of leadership.

"Simply by examining history.." So having historical decent as the stewards of Divine revelation and inheritors of Divine promises requires and or assures this instrument has assured infallibility? (I never received a reply to post 1523 )

Moreover, the Church possesses an unparalleled, non-contradictory body of teaching, in keeping with It being "the pillar and foundation of truth."

The RC assurance that this is the case is because Rome autocratically defines her teachings as non-contradictory, despite problematic examples .

Additionally, countless public miracles are associated with this same Church, including extant,

Hardly, and far insufficient correspondent to her claims, and her adherents, overall manifest they have not realized the most essential miracle, that of the new birth, faring negatively when compared with evangelicals, even in this latter day apostasy of the church.

Simply by examining history,...Since we now know, again, with high probability, that Christ is Who He claimed to be, and that the Catholic Church is His Church, we can be sure that the Catholic Church has the authority to determine the canon of Scripture.

Rather, we see in history such things as hindrance of Bible literacy, papal sanctioned torture, etc. and spiritual deadness, and a radical difference btwn her and the NT church.

Meanwhile the only view of history, tradition and Scripture that has assured veracity and is authoritative is that which comes from Rome, as she has infallibly defined herself to be infallible .

Thus when faced with contrary evidence, no less than Bellarmine argues,

It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine... may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness. Its past is present with it, for both are one to a mind which is immutable. Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves. — Most Rev. Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Lord Archbishop of Westminster, “The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation,” (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, reprinted with no date), pp. 227-228. .

[daniel1212]

The Gospels are accounts of Jesus' life and ministry. The Epistles are letters, explicating Jesus' teachings and Church doctrine. Do you see the distinction? Yet both the Gospels and Epistles constitute Sacred Scripture. Similarly, the deuterocanonical (literally, "second canon") books are distinct from the protocanonical books of the Bible, yet both canons constitute Sacred Scripture

But this equality was not the case with all those who rejected deuterocanonical books, as unlike the epistles, the DC books were rejected as authoritative for doctrine. And the history regarding this testifies against an infallible, indisputable canon bewfore Trent which required acceptance of all the DC books as being Scripture proper.

In its attempts to deal with the problem of ancient rejection of the apocrypha, the Catholic Encyclopedia states,

the inferior rank to which the deuteros were relegated by authorities like Origen, Athanasius, and Jerome, was due to too rigid [strict] a conception of canonicity, one demanding that a book, to be entitled to this supreme dignity, must be received by all, must have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and must moreover be adapted not only to edification, but also to the "confirmation of the doctrine of the Church", to borrow Jerome's phrase. — http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

Catholic historian Hubert Jedin (German), who wrote the most comprehensive description of the Council (2400 pages in four volumes), states,

“[Seripando was] Impressed by the doubts of St. Jerome, Rufinus, and St. John Damascene about the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament, Seripando favored a distinction in the degrees of authority of the books of the Florentine canon... St. Jerome gives an actual difference in degree of authority when he gives a higher place to those books which are adequate to prove a dogma than to those which are read merely for edification. The former, the protocanonical books, are "libri canonici et authentici"; Tobias, Judith, the Book of Wisdom, the books of Esdras, Ecclesiasticus, the books of the Maccabees, and Baruch are only "canonici et ecclesiastici" and make up the canon morum in contrast to the canon fidei. These, Seripando says in the words of St. Jerome, are suited for the edification of the people, but they are not authentic, that is, not sufficient to prove a dogma. Seripando emphasized that in spite of the Florentine canon the question of a twofold canon was still open and was treated as such by learned men in the Church. Without doubt he was thinking of Cardinal Cajetan, who in his commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews accepted St. Jerome's view which had had supporters throughout the Middle Ages.”

While Seripando abandoned his view as a lost cause, Madruzzo, the Carmelite general, and the Bishop of Agde stood for the limited canon, and the bishops of Castellamare and Caorle urged the related motion to place the books of Judith, Baruch, and Machabees in the "canon ecclesiae." From all this it is evident that Seripando was by no means alone in his views. In his battle for the canon of St. Jerome and against the anathema and the parity of traditions with Holy Scripture, he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship.” - Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 270-271,282.

And it is of note that the decision to adopt the Florentine canon as an article of faith anathematizing those who rejected it was agreed to by only 44% of the council members. MORE

[metmom]

Sheesh, I must have been tired or something. I just noticed that I posted this to the wrong post. It was meant for you.

See post 1596

[stonehouse01]

“...if by grace, then it cannot be based on works...”

No human can be saved by their own works - Catholics realize this - no Catholic thinks they can save themselves by works without God’s grace.

However, salvation can be lost - the notion that once saved always saved is what is actually at issue here. People do turn away from God by their works and can lose their salvation. 2 Peter 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of justice than, after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandement which was delivered to them...”

Keeping the commandments and doing what scripture tells us to do IS a work (are works) by it’s (their) very nature. Scripture shows that if a person (or nation) doesn’t do what God as reaveled by scripture tells them to do, they can be lost. In the OT, Israel constantly turns away from God and is lost in the end with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. They believed in God - then disobeyed - disobeying is a WORK.

[metmom]

No human can be saved by their own works - Catholics realize this - no Catholic thinks they can save themselves by works without God’s grace.

Where Catholics need to get is to realize that even with God's grace, their works do not count for anything towards procuring salvation.

Works are the result of being saved. The evidence of the salvation that already happened in them that the faith they have is the living faith, not the dead mental assent that too many people mistake as genuine faith.

And the works need to flow naturally out of that salvation. Simply adding works to mental assent thinking that it's accomplishing something, is useless. It's a deep deception which too many people have fallen for.

If one is not born again, one cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said that we MUST be born again. He never said to simply believe and add good works.

[stonehouse01]

“...Works are the result of being saved...”

Many are “saved” who then commit mortal sins - Luther himself realized this was a very weak link in his “once saved always saved” hypothesis.

Works do NOT procure salvation. Catholics do not believe that works secure salvation. Catholics realize that because of free will, choices must be be made - these choices are constitute a “work”, i.e., actions flowing from our own conscience. Actions against God’s commandments can and do and a capable of causing a person’s salvation to be jeopardized.

Matthew 7:21; Not everyone that saieth to me “Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Doing the will = doing works - doings works means the actions of a person.

[metmom]

Many are “saved” who then commit mortal sins - Luther himself realized this was a very weak link in his “once saved always saved” hypothesis.

There is no grade scale of sin. Sin is sin. You break one and you are guilty of breaking the Law, period.

James 2:10-11 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Works do NOT procure salvation. Catholics do not believe that works secure salvation. Catholics realize that because of free will, choices must be be made - these choices are constitute a “work”, i.e., actions flowing from our own conscience.

Then they need to stop quoting James 2:17. And no Catholic is secure in their salvation. Catholics rail constantly that nobody can know until they die and get there, and nothing sets a Catholic on fire like someone who is sure of their salvation.

God has sealed those who believe with His Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we take possession of it.

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

- these choices are constitute a “work”, i.e., actions flowing from our own conscience.

Our *conscience* is the worst possible means of determining a good work. God has prepared good works in advance for us to do that we should walk in them.

Our works on our own, are tainted with sin, and therefore defiled, filthy rags.

[.45 Long Colt]

FRiend, the Bible teaches ALL SIN IS MORTAL. One sin is sufficient to damn a man to hell.

The hub of this debate over the gospel of Rome and the Christian gospel is the simple word “alone.”

Scripture teaches that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Rome attempts to add works in to the equation, thereby nullifying grace.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Romans 11:6)

We are saved “unto good works.” “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10)

The Bible likens the very best works of men to filthy rags. When a man offers his filthy works to God in exchange for a pardon for sin we know he does not recognize the awesome holiness of God or the extent of his own crimes against God. God’s honor is at stake. If God did not deal with sin harshly he would cease to be God because it would be a violation of His very nature. It’s fashionable to focus on the love of God, and rightly so. What isn’t so fashionable is to also hold the wrath of God in view, but His wrath is as much a part of His holy character as His love.

Either sinners will pay for their sin or their sin will be charged in full to the account of Christ Jesus. That’s what imputation is all about. King David came to understand that his sins would be not be charged to his account, instead they would be charged (imputed) to the account of Christ. David wrote, “Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity.” In order to enter heaven God requires spotless perfection. The one and only way for a sinner to attain that kind of perfection is through the imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness to the account of the sinner.

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Works will never allow a sinner to traverse that gulf between fallen humanity and the holy God of the universe for the wages of sin is death. When a man understands that every single aspect of his being has been tainted by sin he begins to understand the seriousness of his problem and the futility of his pitiful works. He begins to realize how ridiculous it is to attempt to add to Christ’s finished work at the cross. He begins to understand that he doesn’t want his just due (his wages), he wants, indeed he must have, an ocean of GRACE.

In Romans 4 the Apostle Paul explained that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. He went on to explain that Christians are justified in the exact same manner.

“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Now skip forward to the end of that chapter and read where Paul said this wasn’t just true for Abraham.

23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

The Bible also tells us “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.” (Rom 10:4)

Please understand that Christ (the cross of Christ) is the end of the law “for righteousness.” As Paul made clear in Romans 4, righteousness is by faith, by believing God. Righteousness does NOT come through the keeping of the Law. Paul said in Galatians that the law serves as a school master to lead us to Christ. (Gal 3:24)

No one but Jesus has ever kept the law perfectly. The law condemns the best of us and Grace saves the worst of us. The law serves a purpose and that is to bring us to an end of ourselves so that we will realize our need for a Savior.

“For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.” (Roman 5:13)

We are no longer under law but grace. The above verse refers to believers. To know if you are under grace just look at what it means to fall from grace...

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” (Galations 5:4)

When you try to be justified by anything other than Christ’s finished work of the cross you have fallen from grace. To be under Grace is to have your faith completely in the righteousness that only comes from faith in the cross apart from works.

[stonehouse01]

“...who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we take possession of it...”

St. Paul’s letter to the Philippians -

Chapter 2 - Verse 12

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence)

with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

The bible makes it clear that salvation is not gauranteed because human beings are required to use their free will to cooperate with the grace they have been given by God alone. Anyone has the choice and free will to seriously disobey God and lose their salvation at any time - only Christ himself was sinless.

Assuming one has achieved salvation is presumptious and prideful, because all men sin.

[metmom]

Paul also addresses the idea of trying to add works.

Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

[metmom]

That can be interpreted also to work it through, not to earn it but to mature in it.

And THAT interpretation does not conflict with the eternal security promised to believers being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

So tell me, if believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit, what exactly does that mean if not to be kept from *losing* their salvation?

What then, is the point of sealing anyway?

And why call the deposit of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer a guarantee of his inheritance until he takes possession of it, if it is not guaranteed because the person may do something to lose it? How is that being sealed?

[stonehouse01]

“work out your salvation with fear and trembling” is obvious, straightforward, easily understood and requires no further “interpretations”. (the meaning of is, is)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Catholics do not believe that works secure salvation.”

What you say in theory, is far, far, far from what exists in the minds of Catholics I’ve personally spoken with over decades.

In their mind exists a large balance. One one side are all their good works. On the other side, their sins and failures. If the balance tips toward their good works, they will have salvation.

This is of course not Biblical, but exists in their understanding. I cannot speak for every Roman Catholic, but for ALL I’ve ever spoken with - which is a very large number - they have a works/rituals understanding of salvation.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Assuming one has achieved salvation is presumptious and prideful, because all men sin.”

Your very language contains the falsehood that ANYONE can ever “achieve salvation”.

ALL salvation is based ONLY on the completed work of Christ, gratefully accepted in outstretched hands of faith.

It is ALL Him. It is all to HIS glory. When someone comes to faith and apprehends what happens - as described in God’s own Word - when they entrust themselves to God’s grace, they cannot be prideful. They had nothing to contribute. It is a reflection of what HE did in eternity and time to secure their salvation. This recognition is the farthest thing in the world from pride. It is the most humbling recognition in life.

Only Him. Only for His glory.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

““work out your salvation with fear and trembling” is obvious, straightforward, easily understood and requires no further “interpretations”. (the meaning of is, is)”

And yet when you wrest it from the verses on either side of it, you end up with an interpretation that does not reflect the truth of what it written... as you’ve done.

[metmom]

Work it out doesn’t mean earn it. It means you already have it and need to work it out, live it out.

[metmom]

Salvation is a gift.

NOBODY pays for a gift to receive it. The giver of the gift buys it and offers it freely.

Do you give your kids Christmas or birthday presents and then expect or demand that they pay for them or work for them before they can consider them their own?

Gifts are simply received in faith, believing that once accepted they become the property of the recipient. And they do. It is recognized by law that there is a transfer of ownership which doesn’t have to be paid for.

[stonehouse01]

“...work it out doesn’t mean earn it...”

Catholics believe that salvation is a free gift from God that cannot be earned. We agree on this issue. I repeat Catholics believe that salvation is a free gift from God that cannot be earned.

That gift can be lost by turning away from God by sinning - works are not to earn salvation, works are to keep from sin - evil works can be done as well.

[.45 Long Colt]

That makes it so plain.

Dr. White deals with all of this quite thoroughly here:

The Real Issue With Roman Catholicism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xLg2QlEpH8

It’s rather long, but worth everyone’s time. All of us need to remember the importance of the gospel. We must know and believe THE gospel, not what we think is the gospel. THE issue that separates biblical Christians from Rome is the sufficiency of grace, not the necessity of grace.