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To: metmom

“...Works are the result of being saved...”

Many are “saved” who then commit mortal sins - Luther himself realized this was a very weak link in his “once saved always saved” hypothesis.

Works do NOT procure salvation. Catholics do not believe that works secure salvation. Catholics realize that because of free will, choices must be be made - these choices are constitute a “work”, i.e., actions flowing from our own conscience. Actions against God’s commandments can and do and a capable of causing a person’s salvation to be jeopardized.

Matthew 7:21; Not everyone that saieth to me “Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Doing the will = doing works - doings works means the actions of a person.


1,607 posted on 07/22/2013 8:02:10 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: stonehouse01
Many are “saved” who then commit mortal sins - Luther himself realized this was a very weak link in his “once saved always saved” hypothesis.

There is no grade scale of sin. Sin is sin. You break one and you are guilty of breaking the Law, period.

James 2:10-11 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Works do NOT procure salvation. Catholics do not believe that works secure salvation. Catholics realize that because of free will, choices must be be made - these choices are constitute a “work”, i.e., actions flowing from our own conscience.

Then they need to stop quoting James 2:17. And no Catholic is secure in their salvation. Catholics rail constantly that nobody can know until they die and get there, and nothing sets a Catholic on fire like someone who is sure of their salvation.

God has sealed those who believe with His Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we take possession of it.

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

- these choices are constitute a “work”, i.e., actions flowing from our own conscience.

Our *conscience* is the worst possible means of determining a good work. God has prepared good works in advance for us to do that we should walk in them.

Our works on our own, are tainted with sin, and therefore defiled, filthy rags.

1,608 posted on 07/22/2013 9:11:28 AM PDT by metmom (rFor freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: stonehouse01; metmom

FRiend, the Bible teaches ALL SIN IS MORTAL. One sin is sufficient to damn a man to hell.

The hub of this debate over the gospel of Rome and the Christian gospel is the simple word “alone.”

Scripture teaches that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Rome attempts to add works in to the equation, thereby nullifying grace.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Romans 11:6)

We are saved “unto good works.” “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10)

The Bible likens the very best works of men to filthy rags. When a man offers his filthy works to God in exchange for a pardon for sin we know he does not recognize the awesome holiness of God or the extent of his own crimes against God. God’s honor is at stake. If God did not deal with sin harshly he would cease to be God because it would be a violation of His very nature. It’s fashionable to focus on the love of God, and rightly so. What isn’t so fashionable is to also hold the wrath of God in view, but His wrath is as much a part of His holy character as His love.

Either sinners will pay for their sin or their sin will be charged in full to the account of Christ Jesus. That’s what imputation is all about. King David came to understand that his sins would be not be charged to his account, instead they would be charged (imputed) to the account of Christ. David wrote, “Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity.” In order to enter heaven God requires spotless perfection. The one and only way for a sinner to attain that kind of perfection is through the imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness to the account of the sinner.

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Works will never allow a sinner to traverse that gulf between fallen humanity and the holy God of the universe for the wages of sin is death. When a man understands that every single aspect of his being has been tainted by sin he begins to understand the seriousness of his problem and the futility of his pitiful works. He begins to realize how ridiculous it is to attempt to add to Christ’s finished work at the cross. He begins to understand that he doesn’t want his just due (his wages), he wants, indeed he must have, an ocean of GRACE.

In Romans 4 the Apostle Paul explained that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. He went on to explain that Christians are justified in the exact same manner.

“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Now skip forward to the end of that chapter and read where Paul said this wasn’t just true for Abraham.

23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

The Bible also tells us “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.” (Rom 10:4)

Please understand that Christ (the cross of Christ) is the end of the law “for righteousness.” As Paul made clear in Romans 4, righteousness is by faith, by believing God. Righteousness does NOT come through the keeping of the Law. Paul said in Galatians that the law serves as a school master to lead us to Christ. (Gal 3:24)

No one but Jesus has ever kept the law perfectly. The law condemns the best of us and Grace saves the worst of us. The law serves a purpose and that is to bring us to an end of ourselves so that we will realize our need for a Savior.

“For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.” (Roman 5:13)

We are no longer under law but grace. The above verse refers to believers. To know if you are under grace just look at what it means to fall from grace...

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” (Galations 5:4)

When you try to be justified by anything other than Christ’s finished work of the cross you have fallen from grace. To be under Grace is to have your faith completely in the righteousness that only comes from faith in the cross apart from works.


1,609 posted on 07/22/2013 9:32:13 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: stonehouse01

“Catholics do not believe that works secure salvation.”

What you say in theory, is far, far, far from what exists in the minds of Catholics I’ve personally spoken with over decades.

In their mind exists a large balance. One one side are all their good works. On the other side, their sins and failures. If the balance tips toward their good works, they will have salvation.

This is of course not Biblical, but exists in their understanding. I cannot speak for every Roman Catholic, but for ALL I’ve ever spoken with - which is a very large number - they have a works/rituals understanding of salvation.


1,614 posted on 07/22/2013 12:22:30 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacituss)
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