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Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?
catholic-convert ^
| July 11, 2012
| Steve Ray
Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?
A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…
Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints cant do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!
Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?
An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the dead in Christ are those saints who have physically died. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thess 4:16).
THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE JESUS ALONE DOCTRINE. From some peoples point of view, people who have died are classified as dead saints, who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people dont want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, JESUS ALONE fails. If the so-called dead saints do anything then it is not JESUS ALONE, but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called dead saints are in fact not dead, but alive with God.
Dead or in paradise?
HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly dead saints who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no dead saint because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants
HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says Jesus is the god of the living. However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; He is not God of the dead but of the living.
- “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).
Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as dead saints.
Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?
WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than dead saints who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called dead saints; not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.
SORRY LEONARD
YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument. He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun (Eccles 9:6).
When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the persons soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?
How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?
Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet (Kings 13:20-21).
Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It cant be much clearer than that!
The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ
JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE DEAD SAINTS. Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.
“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?
This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that dead saints cant do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.
So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?
TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic; deadsaints; doctrine; prayer; scripture
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To: boatbums
The Bible has intrinsic authority because Holy men of God spoke as they were moved along by the Holy Spirit, it does not derive its authority from men who presume to be above the word of God.Salient truth...But sadly lost on Catholics...
To: boatbums
Amen!!! Thank you for that perfect Scripture, dear sister in Christ!
To: Elsie
To: Iscool; editor-surveyor; CynicalBear
You were given a biblical answer by CynicalBear but apparently it doesn't appeal to your man made logic... Editors was just as biblical and is opposition to yours and Cynical's why is his wrong and Cynical's correct?
God sees all things, past and future...That doesn't mean he's living all things all the time...
Explain how this is possible.
Jesus is not participating in the 2nd Coming at this time...He is waiting...You get that?, waiting for the times (yes, times) of the Gentiles to be fulfilled...
Citation / proof of this please?
A little bit of bible study will clear up all of those quirky ideas your religion teaches you...
Yeah still waiting for your explanation or how can can be both infinite and eternal, if you have Him locked into time and space which editor showed you will not exist at the end of the age.
1,204
posted on
07/17/2013 7:47:08 PM PDT
by
verga
(A nation divided by Zero!)
To: Hot Tabasco
No problem. Vedas are the ancient Sanskrit texts from India. Scriptures of “Hinduism”. (”” because “Hindu” isn’t even a Sanskrit word but a term invented by Mozlems to describe the people they wanted to conquer.)
Most ancient writings in the world.
1,205
posted on
07/17/2013 7:53:15 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: little jeremiah
1,206
posted on
07/17/2013 8:03:17 PM PDT
by
aMorePerfectUnion
( The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus)
To: CynicalBear
Me, too. But it apparently works as we see nearly daily here on this forum. Praise the Lord, though, that He HAS opened some eyes and ears and hearts of those who earnestly are seeking the truth - as He promised he would. He sure did with me!
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)
1,207
posted on
07/17/2013 9:16:14 PM PDT
by
boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
To: Elsie
Kinda reminds me of an assembly line in a factory. We know that the saved in heaven will receive rewards of some kind for the various works they've done for the glory of God - rewards (crowns, gold, silver, precious stones) that are, at the end, laid back at the feet of Jesus because he is worthy of all glory and honor, majesty and praise. I wonder if the more famous or popular saints - as you described them - will get extra rewards based on how many prayers they process? Doesn't seem all that fair, though, since all they are supposedly doing is receiving the request, stamping their “ok” on it and sending it off to the Big Guy. Think they divvy out the intercessory prayers up there, just to keep up and make sure everyone stays busy? /sarc :o)
1,208
posted on
07/17/2013 9:59:06 PM PDT
by
boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
To: boatbums
Funny, I thought Scripture said that there is only ONE mediator.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
ONE mediator between God and man.
1,209
posted on
07/18/2013 1:18:11 AM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: Iscool
What Jesus is doing in heaven right now.
Hebrews 10:12-13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
1,210
posted on
07/18/2013 1:21:15 AM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: Iscool
We are the saints of the church triumphant...And we have a direct phone line to God... Hebrews 4:14-16 14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Kind of lays to rest the idea that those *saints* are more compassionate to our suffering and trials than Jesus is.
1,211
posted on
07/18/2013 1:24:35 AM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: metmom; Elsie
That's interesting because we have other sources posted here that say the supreme authority for Catholics is either the pope or the "Church" Pope Pius XI asserted salvation is dependent on obedience to the supreme authority of St. Peter and his legitimate successors, and while the popes are not, yet another said, Holy Scripture is invested with supreme authority by reason of its sure and momentous teachings regarding the faith. Whatever, then, it tells us of Enoch, Elias and Moses - that we believe. We do not, for instance, believe that God's Son was born of the Virgin Mary simply because He could not otherwise have appeared in the flesh and 'walked amongst men' - as Faustus would have it - but we believe it simply because it is written in Scripture; and unless we believe in Scripture we can neither be Christians nor be saved. (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_15091920_spiritus-paraclitus_en.html)
Yet what this really means is that Scripture only has authority Rome gives it as being the supreme authority, since the only list of books and interpretations of them that have any authority according to Rome, is that which she gives, while actual warrant from Scripture is not necessary for Rome's doctrines, for she declares truth by fiat, for if she "infallibly" declares something then it is true and cannot be wrong, including that she is infallible. J. Smith presumed the same it seems.
1,212
posted on
07/18/2013 1:28:29 AM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: Alamo-Girl
Santa has a slew of Elves to help him...
GOD has a slew of Saints that help HIM...
1,213
posted on
07/18/2013 5:11:01 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: boatbums
I wonder if the more famous or popular saints - as you described them - will get extra rewards based on how many prayers they process?Towards the end of the year; there is ONE Saint who REALLY gets overworked!!!
I tell headquarters EVERY year to get me some help; and ALL they ever send me is...
1,214
posted on
07/18/2013 5:17:17 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: metmom
Kind of lays to rest the idea that those *saints* are more compassionate to our suffering and trials than Jesus is.Like His MOM???
1,215
posted on
07/18/2013 5:18:20 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: daniel1212; District13; teppe; restornu; Normandy
Pope Pius XI asserted salvation is dependent on obedience...So THAT's where the MORMONs get it from!!!
1,216
posted on
07/18/2013 5:20:08 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: daniel1212; District13; teppe; restornu; Normandy
... THAT's where the MORMONs get it from!!!
But JESUS said....
John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, What must we do to do the works God requires?
Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
1,217
posted on
07/18/2013 5:21:46 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: daniel1212; District13; teppe; restornu; Normandy
And JOHN chimes in as well:
1 John 3:21-24
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps Gods commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
1,218
posted on
07/18/2013 5:22:43 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: daniel1212; District13; teppe; restornu; Normandy
(The two above posts will now get trumped by an excessive amount of words from church FATHERS.)
1,219
posted on
07/18/2013 5:23:37 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: daniel1212; Tennessee Nana
Wow, Dan!
You got reply 1212!
How cool is THAT!!
Nana; eat yer heart out!
1,220
posted on
07/18/2013 5:24:42 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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