“However, none of these passages say that man has no ability to respond to God’s grace or call.”
Certainly they do, rather explicitly:
Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
This is why the Arminians even invented the idea of an “initiating grace” in the first place, because man has no native ability to “respond to God’s call.”
Therefore, your position must conclude that we have no native ability to respond to God’s call, unless He gives it to us. This is the only meaning of an “initiating grace” you can have.
The problem with that position, though, is that it pretends that there is still some native part of man that is capable of responding to God’s call after God simply being woken up. As if there is still some spark of goodness in man, just waiting for God to get rid of all the gunk that blocks it. IOW, man really isn’t utterly depraved. He is still, at least on some level, good, despite the Apostle saying otherwise. However, if this were so, then everyone would be similarly “shaken” so as to have the option of believing. Yet, as you can see in John 6, and in other places, Christ connects their unbelief not with a rejection of God’s initiating grace, but rather with them not receiving the call by God to believe at all. “There are many of you that believe not... Therefore I said unto you, no man may come unto me except it is given by my Father.” It is an explanation for their unbelief.
The same occurs again when Christ speaks of His sheep.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
The fact that they are not sheep is the explanation for their unbelief, not a result of a refusal to become the sheep. The sheep are given by the Father to the Son:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Neither are any lost who are indeed given, which can only be so if “to give” really means what it implies; that it is the Father who gives, and not the man who gives himself.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Also notice that Christ does not covet more than those who are given to Him. Not praying for every individual in the world, but for His people given to Him out of the world.
“In the Book of Job, in fact, what is the point of the Book of Job if man is incapable of responding in faith to God?”
What is the point if God is all knowing, and therefore presumably knows, in advance, all possibilities and scenarios, and whether any could succeed or not? Perhaps to teach, and to make His glory known, as the same God who knows His elect from the beginning, also ordained that there should be means for their gathering, that they should go through fire, and come to learn through the preaching of the word, through the enlightening of our souls, through words of reasoning, upon a heart sanctified with God’s favor.
“Peter saw the witness of Jesus’s words and deeds.”
It says “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee.” This does not mean that Peter’s flesh and blood, his carnal nature, figured it out. It is given from above, and not from below, and therefore that Peter saw, with his eyes, meant nothing, until the Father gave him spiritual eyes and brought him to believe. Again, your view doesn’t seem to even be the Arminian view, which you claim to uphold.
“God graciously attempts to get the attention of the unregenerate man, speaking to Him through His creation (see Rom. 1:18-20), His providence (see Acts 14:17), and each person’s conscience (see Rom. 2:14-16).”
And yet unregenerate man, despite all these pleas, simply refuses to repent. Hence why they are judged for it. This is why it is necessary for God to do a lot more than just try to get someone’s attention.
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
“Yet Jesus plainly stated that He would draw all men to Himself. “
And yet that is plainly refuted, with the evidence already given above, with the Jews who were not drawn at all, but were rather blinded. So by “all men,” we can only think that He means all sorts of men, from every nation. The Jews often speak in this manner, using the “world” and “all” to have limited meanings, simply to refer to a large number of people, or all kinds of people.
From Gill’s commentary:
“Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles, “the world”; and “the whole world”; and “the nations of the world” (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word “world” is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that , “there is no propitiation for them” (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n),
“it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, “the whole world” went after him;’’
Thus when the scripture speaks of the world in other places, but plainly means the land of Israel, or perhaps the Roman empire, who are accounted the rulers of the world, though they didn’t really rule every speck of dirt on the planet.
“Note, however, that although Jesus is drawing all men to Himself, not all men are saved. This again proves that man has something to do with his salvation.”
It proves an anemic savior who has no real power to draw, since if He is equally the advocate for a person who will be damned, and a person who will be saved, then there is no real difference between the two. It is simply in the personal righteousness and struggling of the latter.
“and He spoke of it in such a way that anyone who reads what He said without a preconceived bias would conclude that believing in Him was something anyone could do, and something that God desires every person to do.”
On the contrary, Jesus affirms several times throughout the chapter that the reason for their unbelief and mumuring was because it was not given to them by the Father to believe.
Joh 6:43-44 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Christ affirms that the only way to salvation is through faith in Him, and that the only way to have faith is if it is given from above, in explanation to those who did not believe, or scoffed at His teachings.
“Clearly, believing is something they were supposed to do, not something that God did for them.”
Yet that isn’t what is said at all, because it is said “Therefore I said unto you, no man can come unto me unless it is given to Him by my Father.” This is not stating “My Father gave it to you, and you rejected it.” It is stating that they did not believe, and the reason for it was because it was not given.
“John is only endorsing that truth, again affirming the non-Calvinist view. “
But what that “truth” is, you have not explained. You just made a few random statements, and then made a conclusion, not based on anything the scripture said. Because if Jesus only foreknew that they would reject Him, then He would not have said that the Father not giving it was the explanation for their unbelief. That’s not a future prediction of rejection. It is evidence of God not giving faith to some, and leaving others to be blinded.
“How could Jesus rightly hold Judas responsible for his actions if he really had no free choice in the matter?”
So you give the same reply as Paul’s hypothetical opponent:
Rom 9:19-21 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
But your question has already been answered in previous posts. That is, that though it was God’s design that Judas should betray Christ, yet Judas, according to the providence of God, acted by necessity, that is, by his own inclinations, according to his own desires and the desire of the devil, whose child he was. God’s providence is certainly higher than the willing and working of the enemy, and uses them for His own designs freely. Yet, that they are used so, does not make them innocent of their behavior. Christ, for example, didn’t use Paul to do it, or John to do it, but a child of the devil, ordained to that condemnation from old (Jude 1:4).
“The argument has been going on for 500 years and we are not going to settle it now.”
Yes, but at that time it was the Papists who championed your cause.
“So, let’s just go love our Lord and serve Him and tell as many people as we can about His love for them in His Son.”
And yet, it was you who came in shooting, condemning us in general as unloving. If that is how you want to end it, you ought to start it that way too.
“his is why the Arminians even invented the idea of an “initiating grace” in the first place, because man has no native ability to “respond to God’s call.”
Grace is grace.
“19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.”
Notice they knew God, and rejected him.
“At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.”
Notice that before Cornelius converted, the angel said of him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.”
Can a man do something good before conversion? Of course.
“14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”
No man left alone by God would turn to God, but God has left none of us alone. He has given his revelation of himself to all of us in some measure or another.
The point of your Romans 3 quote is this:
“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”
But Paul goes on:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.”
Notice Paul puts no restrictions on who may believe - as Jesus did not. Whosoever.
There is no indication in scripture that man is so depraved that he cannot repent - not unless God has abandoned him in his unbelief. While one passage calls us dead, others call us sick, captive, slaves, blind, etc. God in his grace reveals himself to man. Some respond, others do not.
“18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
We won’t solve a dispute that has gone on for 2000 years - from well before Calvin was born. I’ll go on, feeling free to sing “Jesus loves you, this I know”. Some in the SBC will sing a different song. Oh well.
“It’s cuz I meant to be mean...”
And that is why I usually avoid the religion forum like the plague. The meanest people on FreeRepublic are the ones arguing about who God is...