Posted on 06/14/2013 10:49:52 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Wash., recently spoke on the gift of tongues as described in the New Testament as part of his "Acts: Empowered for Jesus' Mission" sermon series. The conservative Reformed, or New Calvinist, Christian minister laid out his arguments as to why he believes the gift of speaking in tongues did not end with Jesus' apostles in the first century.
Cessationists, such as influential pastor and traditional Calvinist John MacArthur, believe that 1 Corinthians 13:8 and other Biblical passages indicate that the divine ability to speak in other languages or an unknown tongue (glossolalia) ended with the apostles' deaths, as did prophetic revelations and faith-healings through individuals. Some Christians, however, believe that these Holy Spirit-inspired gifts will continue until Christ's return.
In the sermon excerpt shared online this week by Mars Hill Church, Pastor Driscoll tackles three "common questions about the gift of tongues," listed as: "Can every Christian have the gift of tongues? Does Mars Hill Church believe that the gift of tongues is for today? And what happens when the private use of tongues goes public?"
Before diving into his responses, Driscoll insisted that the only way to know who may be "right" or "wrong" about speaking in tongues was by studying the Scriptures — and "not by taking our experience and making it normative."
Although the key text for the full sermon, titled "Empowered by the Spirit to Follow Jesus," was the account of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-13, the megachurch pastor and bestselling author looked to 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 to help frame his responses.
Driscoll relayed a part of the passage: "'For to one is given through the Spirit . . . various kinds of tongues' — or languages, heavenly or earthly — 'to another, the interpretation of tongues' — the ability to articulate in the other language what has been said in the foreign language. 'All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.'"
In regard to whether Mars Hill Church believes that the gift of tongues is an ongoing occurrence, Driscoll stated his agreement with cessationism, while also asking the congregation to consider life in heaven.
"When we get to heaven, the gift of evangelism is not going to be as needed as it is now. You're like, 'I'm going to go out and find the lost people.' There aren't any. This is the kingdom of God. Everybody here already loves Jesus. ... So, evangelism comes to an end," he said, according to the sermon transcript.
He noted 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, which reads: "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known."
"So, we agree with the Cessationists that yes, certain gifts, at least, they're going to cease. They're going to cease," added Driscoll. "Where we disagree with the Cessationists and we agree with the Continuationists is when they cease. We believe that all of the gifts continue until one very important transitionary moment in the history of the world."
He continued, "So, when do these gifts cease? When? When Jesus comes back, when we see him face to face. So the Cessationists are right: certain gifts will come to an end. But the Cessationists are wrong: the end has not yet come. And the Continuationists are right: all the gifts continue until we see him face to face, until Jesus comes again."
The full sermon, third so far in Driscoll's 10-part series, "Acts: Empowered for Jesus' Mission," is available on Mars Hill Church's website. Driscoll, 42, preached "Empowered by the Spirit to Follow Jesus" on June 9, 2013, at the megachurch's Bellevue, Wash., location.
Some Cessationists, such as Pastor John MacArthur, whose The Master's Seminary shares the same campus as his Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, Calif., agree with Driscoll's suggestion that the "perfect" referenced in 1 Corinthians 13:10 speaks of a future eternal state, a period precipitated by Christ's earthly return. However, the evangelical Christian minister points to other passages he believes serve as strong evidence that "tongues ceased in the apostolic age." Cessationists also argue that the completion of the New Testament writings made the continuation of charismatic spiritual gifts unnecessary. Christians in general, though, believe that the Bible teaches that other spiritual gifts, such as teaching, exhortation, discernment and others, are always present to believers.
"Miracle gifts like tongues and healing are mentioned only in 1 Corinthians, an early epistle. Two later epistles, Ephesians and Romans, both discuss gifts of the Spirit at length — but no mention is made of the miraculous gifts," explains an adaptation of MacArthur's 1992 book Charismatic Chaos, published on the theologian's Grace to You (GTY) ministry website. "By that time miracles were already looked on as something in the past (Heb. 2:3-4). Apostolic authority and the apostolic message needed no further confirmation. Before the first century ended, the entire New Testament had been written and was circulating through the churches."
He adds, "The revelatory gifts had ceased to serve any purpose. And when the apostolic age ended with the death of the Apostle John, the signs that identified the apostles had already become moot (cf. 2 Cor. 12:12)."
Listing further Biblical evidence, the GTY.org writing suggests that "tongues were intended as a sign to unbelieving Israel (1 Cor. 14:21-22; cf. Is. 28:11-12). They signified that God had begun a new work that encompassed the Gentiles. The Lord would now speak to all nations in all languages. The barriers were down. And so the gift of languages symbolized not only the curse of God on a disobedient nation, but also the blessing of God on the whole world."
The final Scriptural support given identifies the gift of tongues as "inferior to other gifts" and something that was "given primarily as a sign (1 Cor. 14:22) and was also easily misused to edify self (1 Cor. 14:4)."
"The church meets for the edification of the body, not self-gratification or personal experience-seeking. Therefore, tongues had limited usefulness in the church, and so it was never intended to be a permanent gift," concludes the GTY.org resource titled "The Gift of Tongues." MacArthur, who will tackle the issue in his upcoming Strange Fire conference, reiterates that view in a recent excerpt of his commentary on 1 Corinthians, in which he calls the gift of tongues "(t)he most controversial spiritual gift in our day."
Ephesians 6
18 "And Pray IN the Spirit on All Occasions with All Kinds of Prayers and REQUESTS. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should."
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This shows that you are speaking in the spirit with your native tongue also. A real request is mostly in your native tongue. I do not know of personal requests that a person knows just by an unction of the Holy Spirit tongues/language. The Holy Spirit is bearing up intercession by you mostly when it is vocalized. You are never "Possessed" or out of your own control by the Holy Spirit. He is a perfect gentleman. I know I have the unction to vocalize. Just so you know.
This shows exactly these people are wrong to assume tongues/languages are for every believer. Just so you know from another perspective.
Cheers in Christ.
Okay, I can see your point.
“I’ve had people tell me that their gift of tongues was a heavenly language and that the Holy Spirit was praying through them “in words that cannot be uttered”. They insisted that ALL Christians should pray in the Spirit - but to them that means we all should speak in tongues. I believe the Scripture you posted disproves that contention since Paul says that these “tongues” would cease.”
Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 “And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9 “Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.” 12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others were mocking and saying, “They are full of sweet wine.” 14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. 15 “For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says, ‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; Acts 2:5-17
There are several things noteworthy about this passage from Acts. The first is that Luke uses the words describing these Jewish foreigners as devout men “from every nation under heaven.” He then goes on to list some of the nations from which these men came to Jerusalem. This phrase is repeated several times in the New Testament, and it’s always in reference to every nation under heaven as the apostles knew the world at that time: not as we do.
So when someone asks if America is in Biblical prophecy, the resounding answer is an emphatic “NO!” Neither is Russia nor Japan, nor South America, to name a few. Tongues were given to the apostles to preach the gospel in the world they knew.
Second, Peter claims this event was a sign of the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy indicating they were living in the “last days” (verses 16-17). In Peter’s epistle, he reaffirms this idea:
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7
So if the end of all things was near to the apostles, but the world didn’t end as many evangelicals believe it should have, either we have to say Peter (and the other apostles) lied, were nuts, or we have to adjust our view of what the end meant to them and try to understand it from their perspective.
Dispensationalist and futurist doctrine are the two main reasons why the tongues movement persists even though it ceased with the ministry of the apostles. People who continue to practice this “gift” are deluded.
As a spiritual gift, it is possible to communicate to man that which is already in scripture, but not being recognized in the present context.
God is not a god of confusion, though, so without the tongues being interpreted, they are good for nothingness, which is not an attribute of God.
1Co 14:27-33
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
(28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
(29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
(30) If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
(31) For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
(32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
(33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
I can see why. This guy has “FAKE” written all over him.
1Co_14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Right...And as you know, tongues were for a sign...A sign to the Jews...And since the Jews are blinded during this dispensation, there is no need for the sign of tongues...That's why Paul said the sign of tongues would decrease...
One would certainly not classify him as a preterist, nor is he not charismatic (auto^matic=self-acting; charis^matic = grace-acting = Spirit-controlled).
There is a pejorative use of the word "charismatic" today that is not befitting its true meaning to describe the consistent behavior of regenerated believer-disciple-priests irreversibly bought by The Blood and The Word of Christ, The Anointed One.
He continued, "So, when do these gifts cease? When? When Jesus comes back, when we see him face to face. So the Cessationists are right: certain gifts will come to an end. But the Cessationists are wrong: the end has not yet come. And the Continuationists are right: all the gifts continue until we see him face to face, until Jesus comes again."
In contrast, MacArthur says:
Apostolic authority and the apostolic message needed no further confirmation. Before the first century ended, the entire New Testament had been written and was circulating through the churches.
Driscoll may not always be wrong, and MacArthur may not always be right; but in this Driscoll is very far wrong and departs from the grammar and exposition of the Koine Greek of the time of writing of Chapter 13 of this book to the arguing, disunified Corinthians. Very simply, the crux of the debate rests on gender and number of the two demonstrative pronouns "that" in verse 10. Here's the verse:
"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" (AV, DRB leaves out 'then').
If the first "that" is masculine and singular, then it could refer to Jesus. If that were so, and Driscoll was correct in his exegesis, then the second "that" would have to refer to the "certain gifts," which then must refer logically to three spiritual categories--prophecies, tongues, and knowledge--summed up in the plural sense, either "spirituals" (v. 12:1), or "gifts" (v. 12:4); both of which are both neuter and plural.
However, in the text, both of these demonstrative pronouns are neuter, and both are singular. The conjugationof the verbs expresses the pronouns are third person singular. Therefore, in context, the reader would never have thought that the verse referred to The Christ or His perfection (and hence not the time of His second coming), nor to a plural number of items consisting of the temporary "spirituals". Driscoll's exposition spurns, if not scorns, the explicit grammar, and is worthy of further attention only because his theme does violence to the doctrines of how The God administers His People. The distraction and division of/in the churches today from this misinterpretation cannot come from The Holy Ghost.
Therefore, Driscoll can not be correct in any sense. On the other hand, MacArthur, in referring to doctrine of the presence of the complete, compiled, finalized, and shared, progressively revealed body of the Sayings of The God, The Word, The Hrema (neuter, singular), never to be diminished or embroidered, thus may certainly be correct in calling for the practicing of pseudo-gifts to stop.
Here is the way that I personally suggest that the first century Corinthian, Jew or Gentile, would have understood this verse had he interpreted it to us in the American English of our time:
"And/but whenever it has arrived--that completely finished thing--then that thing having partial quality shall become unuseful any more" (note that "partial" is anarthrous and imparts quality, not particularity, and is therefore singular).
That "thing" that has arrived is the completed anchor of The Faith, The Holy Bible, completely fit for the salvation of the populated world, and the guidance of The God's saints throughout Eternity.
The "thats" as used in 1 John 1:1 and 1:3 are both neuter and singular.
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; . . . That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full" (1 Jn. 1:1,3-4)(my emphasis)
I fully insist that John here in "that which" and "which" (singular, neuter) refers to the body of Sayings, the Rhema, about (peri) The Word of Life." These two demonstrative pronouns do not refer to Christ Himself. They refer to the body (soma) of accumulated and inspired sayings concerning Jesus ("these things," plural, neuter), making them neuter.
Now in this time, this era, this dispensation, there is no more special revelation occuring, no more prophecies originating from on High, since now that the Bible is not deficient in anything pertaining to The Faith, Its propagation, and administration. There are no Papal Bulls redefining the doctrines of The Old Sword. The Perfected Word is closed to any further amendment, and its content has been sealed since John, the Theologian, under The Holy Ghost's inspiration, laid down his pen. The Volume was then fully completed. It has been preserved through the ages by His appointed conveyance, the local churches, and need no Lower or Higher Criticism to synthesize a "newer" and "better" apograph.
There is no more need for vocal communication of sounds not even known by man through objective grammar--they ceased for lack of need or use and have long been forgotten. Today's attempts to resuscitate them is spurious, not encouraged by The Author or His Spirit.
There is no "word of knowledge." The God has done away with that, since The Indwelling Holy Spirit has activated spiritual discernment in the maturing disciple to both interpret and wisely apply the counsel of the Will of The God, through dreading to disappoint or disobey His commandments, and by walking in His Ways with Him (Ps. 128:1). That is, there is no extra-Biblical supernatural implantation of information not already supplied in His Fully and Completely Finished Word. Anything else has been negated. Forever.
This topic leads many into confusion. God our Father does miraculous things in any era He chooses to. We cannot limit Him!
But which is greater, faith with signs or faith without seeing? Faith WITHOUT SEEING! Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed.
Everyone knows the Hall of Faith in Hebrews, right? What of the “others”, of whom the world was not worthy? They were like Jesus was outside the camp, rejected, and quite unsuccessful in sign-seeking persons’ eyes.
Let’s go to him outside the camp, then, and sit in the same faith that believes even though it doesn’t receive!
Incorrect conclusion. The work of God the Holy Spirit indwelling the human spirit of each believer is very active when we intake the Word of God in our soul by hearing the Word. His work is very super-natural. It is spiritual.
Huh? You just argued against yourself, didn't you? Please read over what I said.
The Methodists have stated in one of their Affirmations of Faith:
"We believe in the Word of God contained in the Old and New Testaments as the sufficient rule both of faith and of practice."
Although this is a humanly formulated statement, it sounds water-tight to me regarding how much information The God has supplied us through the voice of His Spirit.
- Without the Word of The God, The Holy Ghost is mute,
- Without The Holy Ghost, The Word of The God is powerless.
As to the fullness of the inspiration of the Bible, please look up "plenary," and "verbal" as well.
A translation, such as the AV, is not inspired; but it carries enough of God's intent to invite clarification through interpretation of the underlying inspired text. Clarification does not bring in more information. Rather it "squeezes" more of the intent than the translation method had carried across.
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