“There’s no ‘not seeking until they decide to seek.’”
Don’t assert that I said something I did not say. You put quotation marks around this statement as if it is something I said, which I did not.
“There’s no ‘none seek until they do.’ That’s just nonsensical. Why bother writing that ‘none seek’ at all, if they seek ‘when they do’?”
Nay. You ignore a great many scriptures my friend. Paul set an example for how to teach using “the whole counsel of God.” You cannot rightly divide the word of truth by cherry picking verses and twisting them to fit into your own schemes.
“Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.”(Isaiah 55:6-7)
“With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!” (Psalm 119:10)
“I was sought by those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me.” (Isaiah 65:1)
I could go on with page after page supporting that people are commanded to seek God, and people do seek God. The point is that we do not seek God first. He saught us first.
The point of the passage is that sinfulness is the universal condition of mankind. Paul argues first in Romans that Gentiles are lost and in need of salvation, and then shows that Jews also are lost and in need of salvation. Here he sums up his argument by quoting a series of Old Testament passages supporting the universality of man’s failure to live righteously and need for redemption. The universal sinfulness of man is an agreed point. Man’s inability to save himself and his lack of any merit to offer for his salvation is a given.
The debate revolves around how the transformation whereby a non-seeker becomes a seeker is effected. Calvinists apparently believe God selects some who are irresistably drawn to God. My contention is that people can and do resist God, and God may at any point quit striving with men and allow them to receive the consequences of their willfulness.
“Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem; See now and know; And seek in her open places If you can find a man, If there is anyone who executes judgment, Who seeks the truth, And I will pardon her. Though they say, ‘As the Lord lives,’ Surely they swear falsely.” O Lord, are not Your eyes on the truth? You have stricken them, But they have not grieved; You have consumed them, But they have refused to receive correction. They have made their faces harder than rock; They have refused to return.” (Jeremiah 5:1-3)
Twice here we see people refused God’s call. It is not irresistable. Yet, as we saw earlier the command to seek offers the POSSIBILITY to those whom He commands to repent. We see that God MAY be found even though we do not seek Him. It does not say He MUST be found by those whom He calls or offers grace. We see a possibility for all people to find God, yet some resist.
Does God command all sentient beings who have sinned to repent? I think not. Where is the command for Satan and fallen angels to repent? But He commands all men everywhere to repent. Yet not all do repent. Some remain in their sin by continued disobedience, following their own will, while others (such as Paul) receive forgiveness because they are obedient to the command to repent. We see that the command is to all (people), but some are disobedient and some are obedient. All are sinners, but some repent. Fallen angels have no option to repent. All people have the option to repent because God has offered salvation to all people on the condition they repent and believe the gospel.
It could not be more clear that Christ’s sacrifice of Himself is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) The blood of Christ purchased all people back from the slavery of sin so that salvation is available for all people who receive it. We see that even false teachers who go to destruction are bought with a price. (2 Peter 2:1) However, the angels that sinned have no redemption because Christ did not offer an atoning sacrifice for them:
“Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.” (Hebrews 2:14-18)
“No one that God moves can remain unmoved.”
I do not find a single passage of scripture that supports that statement when it comes to salvation. It is true that Saul was compelled to prophecy, but he was ultimately rejected by God and was lost as far as I can tell. It does say that God restrained the spirit of antichrist beginning at Babel and continuing until now. (Genesis 11 and 2 Thes. 2) Again, no salvation experience is being compelled, just the restraint of evil. He restrained the false prophet Balaam from cursing Israel. Yet again, no salvation. Was Paul compelled to be saved on the road to Damascas or, as he described that he “was not disobedient to the heavenly vision”. (Acts 26:19) That is, it was an act of obedience rather than compulsion. It is not a question of whether God has the power or ability to move anyone, but rather if this according to His ways or not. I say not.
What we do is not always the same as what we will. See Romans 7 and also 1 Corinthians 9:16-17 which says, “For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship.”
Here we see plainly that Paul had to preach the gospel. He had no choice whether he would do so. Yet, he wanted to preach the gospel. He did it gladly and willingly. Thus, he is rewarded for his willing obedience. But this is, again, not salvation. He is compelled, but even so, he says compulsion would not be the same as giving him a new will or changing his will, but simply forcing a certain action.
There is certainly a newness of desires and willingness within the new heart God gives, but when and to whom does God give such a new heart?
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” (Ezekiel 18:30-32)
It does not say “live and then turn”. The new heart follows the turning and repentance. Clearly. Any other approach requires doing backflips to fit such passages into your paradigm.
“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” (Ephesians 1:12-13) Here and in other passages we see there is an order in the salvation process. We first hear, then understand and believe, and then receive the Holy Spirit. Later in the passage we see the Holy Spirit’s work to reveal more of Christ to the believer.
What is significant is that we are made alive in Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe. The Spirit convicts all of sin, but only gives life to those who repent and believe.
Paul rebukes the Galations for trying to live the Christian life by keeping the Law rather than by the Spirit of grace: “Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” (Galations 3:1b) So he says in another place, “As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him” (Colossians 2:6)
The Christian life is lived by grace, not on the basis of our works. Yet, God’s grace works in us to do His will which includes doing good works as He has ordained. When we do good, it is God working in us by His grace. When we sin it is because we are not doing His will but our own and have only ourself to blame. Is this not a choice?
The Bible commands to choose to serve God. Do you claim that only those already saved have a choice? If so, then how can Paul direct us to walk the Christian life in the same way it began? Both the initial response to the gospel is based on grace as well as the living of the Christian life. All are grace. Both also involve surrendering our will to God’s will and choosing to be obedient to His commands.
“How can God cause us to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments if you are willing and running of yourself to do it?”
I did not say God does not cause it. I did not say that either salvation or walking in God’s ways are “of him who wills or him who runs”. I said, and the passage plainly says that there are those who will and those who run. There are those who are obedient and those who are disobedient to the command to repent and believe the gospel. Does an obedient response earn our salvation? No. We already proved that Paul was obedient but we know he also acknowledged that he was who he was by grace alone.
Again, God commands all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:30) Further, He has provided the means by which repentance unto salvation is possible to all people and available freely to all, not based on our merits or any type of work we have done. “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men”. (Titus 2:11)
Faith is only granted to those who are willing to turn from their sins, i.e. repent.
When people hear the message of repentance and are not obedient, they are hardening their own heart. God is hardening their heart by sending the message which He knows beforehand they will reject. Thus, God knows that for some the message of repentance and salvation will result in greater hardness of heart and greater judgment so that it would be better if they had not known the way of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:21) Jesus said of Judas it would have been better for him if he had never been born. (Matthew 26:24) Yet, God ordained that Judas would be born and would walk side by side with Christ and heap on himself so great a judgment due to his hardened heart. And God wants the gospel preached to all men even though He knows there are those who will not repent and thus bring greater judgment on themselves by hearing and rejecting the truth.
“Your position only works if everyone has it revealed to them that Jesus is the Christ. But, this simply isn’t the case in the scripture.”
People are accountable for the amount of truth they have received:
“For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required...” (Luke 12:48b)
“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” (Romans 1:20-21)
The truth of God is revealed by nature, our consciences, and His word. As a result, every person is accountable for his or her response to the truth they have received.
“God says He chose Jacob before the two were born, before either had done good or evil”
True. But is he talking about salvation from sins here in his choice of Jacob? No. He is quoting from two pasages in the Old Testament regarding first, how God revealed His plans for these two before they were born; and second, how that later these two became nations with Israel being God’s chosen people and Edom being rejected. Paul then applies this truth to our election to illustrate that our salvation is not based on our meritorious works. My point is that some misconstrue this passage to mean God elects some to damnation.
“There’s no figure of speech that can get you out of this mess.”
The point is that I do not base broad sweeping doctrines on scattered and randomly selected verses which often contain figurative language, figures of speech and illustrations which are easily twisted and misapplied.
The message to those who have not received the gift of salvation is to “repent and believe the gospel” now. The message is not that you need to repent and believe but cannot and must wait until and to see if God does this for you. The message is not wait for God’s irresistable grace, but that God’s grace is available now, so do not receive it in vain. He has already offered His grace. He has already provided the sacrifice. He has already ordained the means by which atonement if applied. He has already sent out the messenger. He has provide every possible thing necessary for salvation which He is offering for a limited time to all people.
“We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For He says: ‘In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.’ “ (2 Corinthians 6:1-2)
AMEN!!!
“I could go on with page after page supporting that people are commanded to seek God, and people do seek God.”
And you could do that, but I would be just as indifferent to it as if you had said nothing at all, because I never said that people do not believe or seek. I said that it is God who “gives them an heart to know [Him],” so that they “return unto [God] with their whole heart” (Jer 24:7). Most of your long winded reply is based on this particular strawman that seeking and believing contradicts God’s giving it to us to seek and believe. And then you assert that it is MY theology that picks random scriptures and ignores all the rest, yet throughout this long post of yours I did not see any significant reply to the dozens of scriptures and arguments I have presented. You simply dodged around them as if they didn’t exist at all!
“The point of the passage is that sinfulness is the universal condition of mankind.”
And that universal condition consists of a failure to seek after God:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
“Twice here we see people refused God’s call. It is not irresistable.”
And yet there is an effectual call that is NOT offered to all, but only to some so that they believe, since no one can come to Christ unless they are given by the Father in the first place:
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
We know that despite the Apostles seeking and following and choosing Christ, that it is Christ who tells them that they did NOT choose Him, that they were chosen BY Him:
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
And we know that none of the elect can ever be lost, even in the midst of the most terrible delusions and persecutions:
Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
“Yet, as we saw earlier the command to seek offers the POSSIBILITY to those whom He commands to repent.”
A command to do something does not imply a moral ability to do it. Christ commands us to “sin no more,” and, again, to “be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect.” Yet even Paul still suffered greatly from the sin nature within his members.
“I said, and the passage plainly says that there are those who will and those who run.”
Presumably you’re responding to this:
Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
It’s not a statement about people willing and running. It’s a statement saying that it is “not” of him that wills and runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Or you might be referring to this:
Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
This is not a statement that there are people who will and work. It is a statement that says it is God who works in us to will and to do.
Just like this one:
Isa_26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
And this one:
Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
“Both the initial response to the gospel is based on grace as well as the living of the Christian life. All are grace. Both also involve surrendering our will to God’s will and choosing to be obedient to His commands.”
If one has to “remain” in grace, this is no different than the Romish argument of salvation by works. For one is willingly “surrendering” their will to God, and they are saved, presumably, as long as they are in a condition of remaining in obedience. In this case, grace is no longer a free gift, but is something earned by one’s faithfulness. Yet, even those who attempt to be faithful seekers by their own human power fail miserably:
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
How does “election” obtain anything, if one must obtain election according to your system? But the scripture does not teach that anyone is attaining election. It teaches that God elects whom He will before the foundation of the world, without regard to our merits.
“God has offered salvation to all people on the condition they repent and believe the gospel.”
Technically, your system only allows this for those who have heard the Gospel. Those in remote places of the world do not hear the Gospel, and therefore die all the time without ever hearing it or ever having the chance.
But in the Biblical system, Christ asserts that all those who belong to Him WILL come to Him, regardless of where they are in the world.
“Faith is only granted to those who are willing to turn from their sins, i.e. repent.”
This is about as absurd as your “no one seeks until they seek” profundity from earlier. How is one willing to turn from their sins if they don’t have faith that Jesus is the Christ? And how does one actually have faith of themselves when the truth of Christ being the savior is revealed by God Himself, and not worked out on your own?
Mat_16:17 ... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
“True. But is he talking about salvation from sins here in his choice of Jacob?”
The entire discourse is on salvation from sins for those who are the people of God. It isn’t talking about some obscure topic about Jacob that doesn’t apply to anyone else.