“I could go on with page after page supporting that people are commanded to seek God, and people do seek God.”
And you could do that, but I would be just as indifferent to it as if you had said nothing at all, because I never said that people do not believe or seek. I said that it is God who “gives them an heart to know [Him],” so that they “return unto [God] with their whole heart” (Jer 24:7). Most of your long winded reply is based on this particular strawman that seeking and believing contradicts God’s giving it to us to seek and believe. And then you assert that it is MY theology that picks random scriptures and ignores all the rest, yet throughout this long post of yours I did not see any significant reply to the dozens of scriptures and arguments I have presented. You simply dodged around them as if they didn’t exist at all!
“The point of the passage is that sinfulness is the universal condition of mankind.”
And that universal condition consists of a failure to seek after God:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
“Twice here we see people refused God’s call. It is not irresistable.”
And yet there is an effectual call that is NOT offered to all, but only to some so that they believe, since no one can come to Christ unless they are given by the Father in the first place:
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
We know that despite the Apostles seeking and following and choosing Christ, that it is Christ who tells them that they did NOT choose Him, that they were chosen BY Him:
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
And we know that none of the elect can ever be lost, even in the midst of the most terrible delusions and persecutions:
Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
“Yet, as we saw earlier the command to seek offers the POSSIBILITY to those whom He commands to repent.”
A command to do something does not imply a moral ability to do it. Christ commands us to “sin no more,” and, again, to “be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect.” Yet even Paul still suffered greatly from the sin nature within his members.
“I said, and the passage plainly says that there are those who will and those who run.”
Presumably you’re responding to this:
Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
It’s not a statement about people willing and running. It’s a statement saying that it is “not” of him that wills and runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Or you might be referring to this:
Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
This is not a statement that there are people who will and work. It is a statement that says it is God who works in us to will and to do.
Just like this one:
Isa_26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
And this one:
Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
“Both the initial response to the gospel is based on grace as well as the living of the Christian life. All are grace. Both also involve surrendering our will to God’s will and choosing to be obedient to His commands.”
If one has to “remain” in grace, this is no different than the Romish argument of salvation by works. For one is willingly “surrendering” their will to God, and they are saved, presumably, as long as they are in a condition of remaining in obedience. In this case, grace is no longer a free gift, but is something earned by one’s faithfulness. Yet, even those who attempt to be faithful seekers by their own human power fail miserably:
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
How does “election” obtain anything, if one must obtain election according to your system? But the scripture does not teach that anyone is attaining election. It teaches that God elects whom He will before the foundation of the world, without regard to our merits.
“God has offered salvation to all people on the condition they repent and believe the gospel.”
Technically, your system only allows this for those who have heard the Gospel. Those in remote places of the world do not hear the Gospel, and therefore die all the time without ever hearing it or ever having the chance.
But in the Biblical system, Christ asserts that all those who belong to Him WILL come to Him, regardless of where they are in the world.
“Faith is only granted to those who are willing to turn from their sins, i.e. repent.”
This is about as absurd as your “no one seeks until they seek” profundity from earlier. How is one willing to turn from their sins if they don’t have faith that Jesus is the Christ? And how does one actually have faith of themselves when the truth of Christ being the savior is revealed by God Himself, and not worked out on your own?
Mat_16:17 ... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
“True. But is he talking about salvation from sins here in his choice of Jacob?”
The entire discourse is on salvation from sins for those who are the people of God. It isn’t talking about some obscure topic about Jacob that doesn’t apply to anyone else.
“Most of your long winded reply is based on this particular strawman that seeking and believing contradicts God’s giving it to us to seek and believe.”
Not at all. I agree that the ability to seek and believe are gifts from God. What is clearly wrong is the idea that for some people, God does not provide a means by which they can escape the judgment of hell because He has not afforded them the opportunity to repent and believe. It is correct to assert such a thing about Satan. He has no choice. It is correct to assert that God had no obligation to offer life to all mankind, but the fact remains that He did offer life to all. He did provide a sacrifice for all.
“And yet there is an effectual call that is NOT offered to all, but only to some so that they believe, since no one can come to Christ unless they are given by the Father in the first place: John 6:64-65 ‘But there are some of you that believe not’. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father’.”
There is always an effect when a person hears the gospel. In some cases the hearer does not repent and believe resulting in a hardening of the heart. The effectual call is when a person repents and believes and God’s Spirit gives to that person new life in Christ. But to say that the type of call is different because the results are different is a tautology. It is a distinction without a difference. That is, the result is some believe and some believe not. This result does not prove a cause.
The scripture is clear that some CANNOT believe because God has not given it to them. That is not what I am debating. The debate is over why He does not grant faith to some and does to others. Is it arbitrary? Is it capricious? Does God randomly select who will be saved and ignore the remainder?
There is a REASON God does not grant saving knowledge and faith to some: stubborn, unrepentant pride. When people hear God’s laws, when they are convicted by the Holy Spirit and yet refuse to humble themselves and tremble at His word, He hardens their heart so that “seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not.” When people stubbornly cling to their pride, they reject God’s grace and are unable to find saving faith.
“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.” (Isaiah 5:3-5)
The question He asks through Isaiah is “what more could I do to bring repentance”? It says plainly that God expected good fruit, but did not find it. Was God surprised? Did He not know they would not bear fruit? No, He knows all things. The point is they could have and should have produced good fruit but failed to do so, not because God did not do something but because of what they failed to do. And so, after doing everything possible to provide salvation, there are some who still refuse to repent. And there comes a time of God’s own choosing when He says He will no longer offer grace. For some that may possibly be at death, but clearly there are some who finally and ultimately reject Christ during their lifetime with absolutely no hope of being brought to repentance. We do not know who those people are, but God does. And so, in Isaiah 6 we see that He blinds them. He has done all He can, and they will not repent.
Likewise, today, God has done all He can do to bring repentance and salvation to man. He has looked for every possible way and opportunity to offer grace and mercy. He has withheld nothing. He gave His beloved Son. What more could He do than what He has already done? And so, when people reject His offer of salvation in Christ, there is nothing else left but judgment.
“And we know that none of the elect can ever be lost, even in the midst of the most terrible delusions and persecutions”
Agreed. Salvation is certain for the elect. God knows from before time began who will be saved. We can also know with complete certainty because He has given His Holy Spirit to those who believe as proof that He will complete the work He began at the moment of faith.
“It is a statement that says it is God who works in us to will and to do.”
Agreed.
“If one has to ‘remain’ in grace, this is no different than the Romish argument of salvation by works.”
Our coming to Christ is God’s doing, not ours. Our remaining in Christ is likewise His doing and not ours. It is not based on our ability but His.
“But the scripture does not teach that anyone is attaining election. It teaches that God elects whom He will before the foundation of the world, without regard to our merits.”
No one attains election. Yes, God chose the elect before time began. The question is “what is the basis for His choice?” Fortunately, not based on our merits. On that you are correct. Did He look down through the corridors of time and choose the brightest? No. The richest? No. The most beautiful. Again, no. Yet there are some rich, wise, and beautiful who are among the elect. God chose those who had no merit, nothing to offer Him. Then what is the distinction?
Can anyone simply will themselves saved? No. Satan could wish to be saved, but no such option is available no matter how much will power he can produce. But, God has offered salvation to “whosoever will” within mankind.
“And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let him who hears say, ‘Come!’ And let him who thirsts come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”(Revelation 22:17)
“Technically, your system only allows this for those who have heard the Gospel. Those in remote places of the world do not hear the Gospel, and therefore die all the time without ever hearing it or ever having the chance. But in the Biblical system, Christ asserts that all those who belong to Him WILL come to Him, regardless of where they are in the world.”
I’m not sure how these people are prevented from coming to Christ based on my understanding of scripture. Presumably the same way they would come to Him in yours. Are you saying there are people who are born again today without the need or benefit of the gospel?
Regardless, if someone is elect then God will be sure they have heard the message needed. I don’t see how your position offers a greater likelihood of the elect being saved than mine. If they are elect, they will be saved. Their location in the world is no difficulty for God.
“How is one willing to turn from their sins if they don’t have faith that Jesus is the Christ?”
By the Law. The righteousness of God is revealed in the Law and resonates upon the heart of all who hear being convicted by their own conscience of their guilt before God and worthiness of judgment. Some are pricked in their conscience and lash out at the messenger; some humble themselves and find grace and mercy.
“Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’” (Acts 2:37)
“When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.” (Acts 7:54)
In both of these cases, the conviction of righteousness revealed in the laws of God brought a response. In one instance, the law served like a schoolmaster that brought thousands to Christ. In the other, they rejected God’s call to repentance and remained in their sins. yet, even in this second case, God continued to pursue Saul who later repented and was saved.
“And how does one actually have faith of themselves when the truth of Christ being the savior is revealed by God Himself, and not worked out on your own?”
They cannot believe who will not repent.
When people are convicted by the Holy Spirit through either the law of God written on their hearts or by the revealed righteousness of God contained in the Law of Moses or even by the glory of God revealed in nature including our own bodies, they will either harden their hearts and remain unrepentant or will humble themselves and be granted repentance and faith unto life.
“The entire discourse [in Romans 9] is on salvation from sins for those who are the people of God. It isn’t talking about some obscure topic about Jacob that doesn’t apply to anyone else.”
Yes, Romans 9 is about salvation, but the verses he quotes to make his case are not specifically about salvation. In a broader context Paul is defending his gospel message to his Jewish opponents. These are the same ones who took pride in being the “chosen” people and the “elect”. These are like the ones John the bapist told to not say “we have Abraham as our father.” Christ pointed out to them that God chose to do special miracles for Gentile believers Naaman the Syrian and the widow who helped Elijah whom God miraculously fed during a famine. For that the Jews wanted to kill Him. This is a group that argued that Paul’s gospel was false because it would mean God had cast away His chosen people and failed to keep His promises.
Between verses 12 and 13 over a thousand years have elapsed. First he quotes from Genesis 25:23 and then from Malachi 1:2-3. Yet Paul links the two. He is talking about Israel being chosen to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant rather than Edom, because the two unborn babies were actually two nations. It is similar to how he argues that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised. The timing and order are important. God rejected Edom, but He had a special and eternal love for Israel. Yet there are decendants of Israel (Jacob) who are NOT chosen for salvation.
Paul then continues to explain how God has chosen a remnant of Israel to be saved in the past and at that time. He further says that Israel will yet be saved as a nation. And he says that the partial blindness of Israel (i.e. the blindness of those who are not of the chosen remnant) was part of God’s plan to bring salvation to the gentiles. Paul here expresses hope that more Jews will be provoked to jealousy by His favoring of the gentile believers and result in more Jews being saved. The Jews did not win many converts to Judiasm:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.” (Matthew 23:15)
Yet Paul and others were spreading the gospel arond the world. And the Jewish religious leaders were jealous. Paul hoped this jealousy would result in his fellow Jews reconsidering their relationship with God. Paul doesn’t seem at all concerned that the newly provoked Jews might somehow be unable to come to Christ because they are not the elect. No, he strives to see as many as possible come to salvation. Further, there is no complacency of saying “that all those who belong to Him WILL come to Him, regardless of where they are in the world”. No, Paul is urgent about going to the lost with the message of salvation.
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more” (1 Corinthians 9:19)
And how do you reconcile this Old Testament passage being used to illustrate saving the elect when the Holy Spirit had not yet been given? (John 7:39) Didn’t you earlier argue that God’s Spirit must first regenerate a person before he can believe? and not rather that we must believe in order to receive the regeneration?
When we read that Abraham believed God, we are not given any indication that the Holy Spirit had raised him up from spiritual death so that he could then believe. Certainly the Spirit of God came upon some men to accomplish His special purpose for a select few individuals, but the scriptures are clear that even at the time of Christ’s earthly ministry, the coming of the Holy Spirit was as yet an unfulfilled prophecy.
Certainly you are not saying that those of that dispensation were saved by keeping the Law are you? Salvation has always been by grace through faith. I’m very curious as to how Calvinists think Old Testament saints were saved.