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To: fidelis; Steelfish; fwdude; Ultra Sonic 007; NYer

“He continues: “As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me” (John 6:57). The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.”


Let’s see:

Joh 6:26-29 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. (27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. (28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Presumably, when Christ says “labour... for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life,” it refers literally to the Eucharist. But then the Jews ask him “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” in response to this statement; instead of answering “Get a Priest to feed you bits of my body!”, Christ replies “believe on him whom he hath sent.” Thus, to believe is to eat His body and blood, just as faith joins you to His body. Not literally, but spiritually.

Augustine favors this view, commenting on the same lines of scripture:

“They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” For He had said to them, “Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life.” “What shall we do?” they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already.” (Augustine, Tractate 25)

In response to the Jews walking away, since they took him literally (the Roman Catholic view), Christ replies, as if to explain:

Joh 6:61-63 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? (62) What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? (63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Christ declares that His body is returning to “where He was before.” This He does to draw them from the carnal sense and to think spiritually. He continues, “the spirit... quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing.” Christ points them back to the faith He commanded previously in verse 29, and does not encourage them to take a bite out of Him right then and there. If the “flesh” profiteth nothing for meat and drink, and if the flesh that did profit was crucified on the cross, resurrected, and then taken up to heaven and glorified, how does it follow that eating Christ’s flesh and blood literally actually does profit? Therefore, the “profit” is in the clear command Christ gave to believe. “Why dost thou prepare thine teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already.”

I’ll also add that Christ also offers to the Samaritan woman “living water,” by which a person should drink and have everlasting life. Yet, the RCC does not offer a sacrament of living water for people to drink.

Joh 4:10-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. (11) The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? (12) Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? (13) Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: (14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Christ speaks of drinking this living water, yet did not actually give her literal water nor ever prescribed it. What He commanded was faith and spiritual worship, which you see later in His discourse with the woman. Augustine makes the same observation, connecting John 6 with John 4.

“You expected, I believe, again to eat bread, again to sit down, again to be gorged. But He had said, Not the meat which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life, in the same manner as it was said to that Samaritan woman: If you knew who it is that asks of you drink, you would perhaps have asked of Him, and He would give you living water. When she said, Whence have you, since you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep? He answered the Samaritan woman: If you knew who it is that asks of you drink, you would have asked of Him, and He would give you water, whereof whoso drinks shall thirst no more; for whoso drinks of this water shall thirst again. And she was glad and would receive, as if no more to suffer thirst of body, being wearied with the labor of drawing water. And so, during a conversation of this kind, He comes to spiritual drink. Entirely in this manner also here.” (Augustine, Tractate 25)

Therefore, your position exists by taking a few words of scripture out of context, but ignoring the entire chapter and almost the entire book of John, which everywhere points the believer to faith for gaining eternal life, and not physically eating or drinking flesh, blood or water to have eternal life. Christ Himself explains to His apostles the true meaning of His discourse, of which the RCC utterly ignores.


35 posted on 06/02/2013 3:43:13 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Thanks for the illuminating dissertation, puny. Very good.


38 posted on 06/02/2013 3:49:57 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Live sources? Did you forget?


52 posted on 06/02/2013 4:32:10 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; fidelis; Steelfish; fwdude; Ultra Sonic 007; Salvation; Natural Law
Augustine favors this view, commenting on the same lines of scripture:

“They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” For He had said to them, “Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life.” “What shall we do?” they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already.” (Augustine, Tractate 25)

By figurative St Augustine means that we should not think carnally about "eat My flesh". We would not need to eat Jesus carcass. This explanation is consistent with St Augustine teachings especially his sermon on John 6. St. Augustine goes on to say:

"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).

If you are going to quote a Catholic saint, be sure to use ALL associated references.

77 posted on 06/02/2013 5:19:55 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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