Posted on 06/02/2013 11:49:33 AM PDT by NYer
SHAME on you for using God’s scripture to attack another Christian. SHAME.
Exodus 12:1-14 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. And they shall EAT THE FLESH in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. ............... it is the LORD's PASSOVER................................................And this Day Shall Be Unto You for a Memorial; and YE SHALL KEEP IT a FEAST to the LORD Throughout Your Generations; ye shall keep it a FEAST by An ORDINANCE FOREVER.
"YE SHALL KEEP IT a FEAST to the LORD Throughout Your Generations; ye shall keep it a FEAST by An ORDINANCE FOREVER. "
FOREVER! FOREVER! FOREVER!
"YE SHALL KEEP IT a FEAST to the LORD Throughout Your Generations; ye shall keep it a FEAST by An ORDINANCE FOREVER. "
Malachi 1:10-11
Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand. For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a PURE OFFERING: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament [NKJV, RSV, NIV, NASB, etc.: “covenant”], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. [see Exodus 24:8]
Luke 22:19
This IS my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me. [Note: the word used here for “remembrance” is “anamnesis,” which is used exclusively to refer to sacrifices in the Old Testament: Leviticus 2:2, 9,16; 5:12; 6:15; 24:7; Numbers 5:26; 10:10 — and in the New Testament: Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25; Hebrews 10:3. This is in contradistinction to the word “anamimnesko,” used in Genesis 8:1; 41:9; Exodus 23:13; 2 Samuel 18:18, etc., and which refers not to a sacrificial re-presenting, but to a mere memorial Both Greek words are used together in Numbers 10:9-10 — verses which clearly distinguish between the two words and which show that Luke 22:10 refers to a true sacrifice.)
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 6:32-36
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:51-69
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Acts 2:42
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
1 Corinthians 10
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
I Corinthians 11:23-30
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [Note: eating a “symbol” unworthily would bring damnation on one’s self and make one guilty of the body and blood of Christ? Only Catholic theology makes sense of these verses! Also note that the the use of “and” in “he that eateth and drinketh unworthily” is King James usage. St. Jerome’s Vulgate, the Douay-Reims, New King James Version, NIV, NASB, NLT, ESV, ASV, etc., all use the proper “or” — “vel” in Latin. This is important because it shows clearly that the “bread” and “wine” each become the Body and Blood of our Lord because eating or drinking unworthily makes one guilty of both. This is why one can receive Christ entirely by consuming either.]
Hebrews 2:16-17
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus
Hebrews 4:14
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 5:1-10
For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 6:17-20
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. [RSV: So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he interposed with an oath, so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible that God should prove false, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchiz’edek.]
Hebrews 7:11-12
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [Note: “for the priesthood being changed,” not eradicated!]
Hebrews 7:24-28
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Hebrews 9:22-24
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us [NIV: “It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.”; YLT: “[It is] necessary, therefore, the pattern indeed of the things in the heavens to be purified with these, and the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.” In other words, sacrifices — plural — are still necessary.]
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. [Yes, His death on the Cross was once and for all, but His offering of Himself is eternal, or else He could not be a “priest after the order of Melchizedek.” The Mass is an unbloody sacrifice!]
Hebrews 13:10
We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [an altar indicates sacrifices!]
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 5:6-8
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It breaks my heart that those who profess faith in Christ USE and ABUSE HIS SCRIPTURE WORDS in attacking other Christian belivers. This is not of God.
The Catholic mass is all based on the Bible.
>> “The Catholic mass is all based on the Bible.” <<
.
Where? Yeshua said that the breaking of bread was to be done “As a remembrance of Me,” and Paul said “as often as you break this bread and drink this cup you do show the Lord’s death until he comes.” (IOW a remembrance)
A Biblical Walk Through the Mass by Edward Sri (Book Review) [Ecumenical]
Honoring those very same words.
Thank-you!
Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Unless you’re actually intending to keep ALL of the Jewish Holidays, you have no argument, as they have been fulfilled by Christ and now continue in the reality that is Christ.
So Jesus was born of a virgin? See how truth sounds really dumb when you think about it with a carnal mind?
You know that we Christians are being assaulted on every side by our enemies, don’t you? If you choose not to believe in transubstantiation, that is your prerogative. But since all Christians are part of the “Body of Christ”, a bit of respect would be helpful.
“So Jesus ate Himself at The Last Supper. See how heresies sound really dumb when you really think about them?.....”
This is actually an insipid statement. As a Catholic I should be angry with you, but I am not - and I acknowledge that there is an equal amount of disrespect coming from my side as well.
The article above had a lot of truth. What it was missing were the accolades due to some really great Christian heroes. Billy Graham amongst others is one of the most impressive Christians ever.
So let us all be more understanding, and love one another, as Jesus loved us.
We all have bigger fish to fry!
“Luke 22:19
This IS my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me. [Note: the word used here for remembrance is anamnesis, which is used exclusively to refer to sacrifices in the Old Testament:”
Thats impossible, since the Old Testament was originally Hebrew, not Greek. Furthermore, the Greek word in the LXX does not translate to memorial sacrifice. Nor is there a special connection between the word used in the NT as the one in the OT in connection with sacrifice. In fact, various versions of remembrance are all used in connection with sacrifices, with no one word taking up the use memorial sacrifice all at once, save perhaps here: Leviticus 2:2 uses mnemosynon for the sacrifice placed right on the altar, not anamnesis.
Lev_2:2 And he shall bring it to Aarons sons the priests: and he shall take thereout his handful of the flour thereof, and of the oil thereof, with all the frankincense thereof; and the priest shall burn the memorial of it upon the altar, to be an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD:
The same word is used in 2:9 and 2:16, just as an example from this one chapter.
“This is foolishness beyond belief. Its not You guys who said this. This is what Christ did at the Last Supper and sent Peter and His Apostles to do likewise. It is the belief of the very early Christian community. “
This has already been firmly refuted. See post #35 as an example.
I’ll also add that the earliest Christians believed the cup that represented His blood was still the “fruit of the vine.”
Mat 26:28-29 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? For He had said to them, Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life. What shall we do? they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent. This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already. (Augustine, Tractate 25)
By figurative St Augustine means that we should not think carnally about "eat My flesh". We would not need to eat Jesus carcass. This explanation is consistent with St Augustine teachings especially his sermon on John 6. St. Augustine goes on to say:
"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, This is my body [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405])."I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lords Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).
"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).
If you are going to quote a Catholic saint, be sure to use ALL associated references.
You’re quoting Augustine out of context.
To the unsuspecting reader, you would think that Augustine really does support your theology. But WAIT, how does Augustine actually define his own views?
You know that in ordinary parlance we often say, when Easter is approaching, Tomorrow or the day after is the Lords Passion, although He suffered so many years ago, and His passion was endured once for all time. In like manner, on Easter Sunday, we say, This day the Lord rose from the dead, although so many years have passed since His resurrection. But no one is so foolish as to accuse us of falsehood when we use these phrases, for this reason, that we give such names to these days on the ground of a likeness between them and the days on which the events referred to actually transpired, the day being called the day of that event, although it is not the very day on which the event took place, but one corresponding to it by the revolution of the same time of the year, and the event itself being said to take place on that day, because, although it really took place long before, it is on that day sacramentally celebrated. Was not Christ once for all offered up in His own person as a sacrifice? And yet, is He not likewise offered up in the sacrament as a sacrifice, not only in the special solemnities of Easter, but also daily among our congregations; so that the man who, being questioned, answers that He is offered as a sacrifice in that ordinance, declares what is strictly true? For if sacraments had not some points of real resemblance to the things of which they are the sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all. In most cases, moreover, they do in virtue of this likeness bear the names of the realities which they resemble. As, therefore, in a certain manner the sacrament of Christs body is Christs body, and the sacrament of Christs blood is Christs blood. (Augustine, Letters 98)
Augustine explains that in common parlance he seems to speak literally that the Lords passion is the following day, or that this day is the Lord risen.” He connects this manner of speaking to the Eucharist, and declares that it is in a certain manner the body of Christ, based on its bearing the name of the reality they resemble, even though, like the Passion, Christ is not really raised up. Thus, when Augustine speaks of the Eucharist being the body of Christ, he means it from the standpoint of what it symbolizes, but not that it is actually a part of Christs real physical body placed on the altar. It is simply a manner of speaking. Heres more support, from sermon 227 which you quoted:
What you can see passes away, but the invisible reality signified does not pass away, but remains. Look, its received, its eaten, its consumed. Is the body of Christ consumed, is the Church of Christ consumed, are the members of Christ consumed? Perish the thought! Here they are being purified, there they will be crowned with the victors laurels. So what is signified will remain eternally, although the thing that signifies it seems to pass away. So receive the sacrament in such a way that you think about yourselves, that you retain unity in your hearts, that you always fix your hearts up above. Dont let your hope be placed on earth, but in heaven. Let your faith be firm in God, let it be acceptable to God. Because what you dont see now, but believe, you are going to see there, where you will have joy without end. (Augustine, Ser. 227)
Augustine is quite clear that the body of Christ is not consumed. In fact, his entire argument here is that the bread itself symbolizes the Christian directly. In other words, it is US who are offered on the table, though we are not literally transubstantiated into bread.
I would recommend, actually, reading the entire sermon, as it reveals a great deal into Augustines views on the various sacraments. By his definition, sacraments and symbolism is the same thing. Hence, he can have a sacrament of the Holy Spirit which is the oil, also mentioned in that same sermon.
Then came baptism, and you were, in a manner of speaking, moistened with water in order to be shaped into bread. But its not yet bread without fire to bake it. So what does fire represent? Thats the chrism, the anointing. Oil, the fire-feeder, you see, is the sacrament of the Holy Spirit. (Same as above)
Another, the sacrament of the kiss of peace:
After that comes Peace be with you; a great sacrament, the kiss of peace. So kiss in such a way as really meaning that you love. Dont be Judas; Judas the traitor kissed Christ with his mouth, while setting a trap for him in his heart. But perhaps somebody has unfriendly feelings toward you, and you are unable to win him round, to show him hes wrong; youre obliged to tolerate him. Dont pay him back evil for evil in your heart. He hates; just you love, and you can kiss him without anxiety. (Same as above)
Wheres your sacrament of kissing by the way? And do you think that peace is transubstantiated into a kiss? Or is the Holy Spirit transubstantiated into the oil? This makes it clear that when Augustine speaks of Sacraments, he uses the word to mean something that is symbolic that we should meditate upon for a higher truth. Thus, the oil, which is the sacrament of the Holy Spirit, helps us think about the regenerating power of the Spirit. The sacrament of the Kiss of peace should bring our Christian duties we owe to one another to mind, though “peace” is not transubstantiated into the kiss.
Heres more quotes in general, interpreting the Eucharist as Protestants do today:
They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? For He had said to them, Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life. What shall we do? they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent. This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already. (Augustine, Tractate 25)
Let them come to the church and hear where Christ is, and take Him. They may hear it from us, they may hear it from the gospel. He was slain by their forefathers, He was buried, He rose again, He was recognized by the disciples, He ascended before their eyes into heaven, and there sitteth at the right hand of the Father; and He who was judged is yet to come as Judge of all: let them hear, and hold fast. Do they reply, How shall I take hold of the absent? how shall I stretch up my hand into heaven, and take hold of one who is sitting there? Stretch up thy faith, and thou hast got hold. Thy forefathers held by the flesh, hold thou with the heart; for the absent Christ is also present. But for His presence, we ourselves were unable to hold Him. (Augustine, Tractate 50)
It seemed unto them hard that He said, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, ye have no life in you: they received it foolishly, they thought of it carnally, and imagined that the Lord would cut off parts from His body, and give unto them; and they said, This is a hard saying. It was they who were hard, not the saying; for unless they had been hard, and not meek, they would have said unto themselves, He saith not this without reason, but there must be some latent mystery herein. They would have remained with Him, softened, not hard: and would have learnt that from Him which they who remained, when the others departed, learnt. For when twelve disciples had remained with Him, on their departure, these remaining followers suggested to Him, as if in grief for the death of the former, that they were offended by His words, and turned back. But He instructed them, and saith unto them, It is the Spirit that quickeneth, but the flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I have spoken unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Understand spiritually what I have said; ye are not to eat this body which ye see; nor to drink that blood which they who will crucify Me shall pour forth. I have commended unto you a certain mystery; spiritually understood, it will quicken. Although it is needful that this be visibly celebrated, yet it must be spiritually understood. NPNF1: Vol. VIII, St. Augustin on the Psalms, Psalm 99 (98)
See post 78 for the refutation of NYT’s out of context quotes. I forgot to ping those he pinged.
Racist remark.
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