Posted on 06/02/2013 11:49:33 AM PDT by NYer
The five solas deal with doctrine, so you can dispense with any notion that I only spoke of personal sin in one of posts.
Second, you have already stated, and I have already agreed that there are unfortunate emanations within the progeny of the Protestant Reformation, so your “rerun” of the same seems somewhat redundant.
You, however, seem charmingly oblivious to the slightest of deviations or errors or bad apples within the Church of Rome. All angels, correct? (But we all know better.) I am looking for a bit more candor from you in this area, but neither am I holding my breath.
Also, I suggest you please do not try — as you did in your post — to slip Romanist “tradition” into this discussion. Or, at least do not expect me to buy it. That is the very point of Sola Scriptura. Sorry, not discussing the “traditions” of Rome, as they are not salvific, no matter how many Popes and Church Doctors put their approval on them.
No: The Jews gave us the Old Testament. (The Apocrypha are Jewish gifts, as well, though only Deuterocanonical in status.) No work for the Fathers there. Neither were the Books of the New Testament “chosen” by the Church Fathers. They were recognized and received by the Church collective in the early centuries of the Church.
Moreover, your haughty tone regarding Catholic prowess in scholarship is somewhat amusing. Has the Church of Rome been abundantly blessed in the past 1700 years with brilliant scholars — Augustine and Aquinas at the top of the list? But, of course. However, Rome hardly has a monopoly on theological scholarly excellence.
You are perhaps ignorant of the not insignificant scholarly attainments of men such as Luther and Calvin in the Reformation Era, the writings of the Puritans on both sides of the Atlantic, later Colonial preachers (see Jonathan Edwards), the English Baptists (see John Gill), various Dutch Reformed scholars, and in modern times, men such as Benjamin B. Warfield, to give the most cursory of listings. And, if we wish to speak of hymnody, after giving the Catholics a head start of over 1100 years, the Protestants have fairly beaten the socks off the Catholics since 1500. Think Luther. Think Watts. Think the Wesley brothers. And so on.
Granted, Joel Osteen probably has never heard of most of the scholars we are discussing, but Joel Osteen is hardly the avatar of Protestantism as followed by me or many like me.
Finally, the fact that many big names have become Catholics — while true — is not in and of itself necessarily an argument for Rome’s claims to be the “One True Church,” as the New Testament makes it clear that the Gospel is for sinners of low estate, as well as high. to be fair, however, indeed Rabbis have also become Protestants. The great physicist, Isaac Newton, was a Protestant believer. There have no doubt also been Protestant literary greats, Nobel laureates, poets, sculptors, painters, philosophers, mathematicians, astronomers, and, yes, martyrs and saints.
Have a nice evening.
No parroting here. We simply cite Christ’s own words and the practice of early Christian Churches, and received tradition. This you are unwilling to confront. This is something that “low-information” Christian followers are unwilling to examine. Just ask the “pastors” of the tens of thousands of mushroom Christians sects from Rev. David Koresh to Rev. Jim Jones to the Joel Osteens, Schullers, and Rev. Jeremiah Wright to current day televangelist hucksters and mega-church rock n’ roll hillbilly congregants. The early Christian belief in the Eucharist is conclusive. Here’s one example.
St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr’s crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena. Below is one of his letters.
“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.” (”Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.)
News flash. Corinth was in Greece where the people, wait for it.................wait for it...................spoke Greek. There was no "original Hebrew".
Luther and Calvin would be spinning in their graves to know the multitude of spin-offs that have resulted from their breakaway from Church tradition. The Bible did not fall from the skies. It was a set of books formally authorized by those who had the power to authorize, the Catholic Church. Not some loose assortment of believers as you appear to imply.
An example of early Church traditions if found in St. Ignatius’ work.
St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr’s crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.
Below is one of St. Ignatius’ letters:
“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.” [”Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.]
Buddy you do not know what the text means. . Go have any opinion you want. freedom of speech. Cheers!
“No parroting here. We simply cite Christ’s own words and the practice of early Christian Churches,”
That’s exactly what I did. What you did was assert that you did that, in reply to my doing of it, and ignored every single thing I said which demonstrated that Christ was quite clear on the matter, despite Roman mass hysteria.
Here’s Ignatius agreeing with my view:
“Not that I know there is anything of this kind among you; but I put you on your guard, inasmuch as I love you greatly, and foresee the snares of the devil. Wherefore, clothing yourselves with meekness, be renewed in faith, that is the flesh of the Lord, and in love, that is the blood of Jesus Christ. Let no one of you cherish any grudge against his neighbour. Give no occasion to the Gentiles, lest by means of a few foolish men the whole multitude [of those that believe] in God be evil spoken of. For, Woe to him by whose vanity my name is blasphemed among any. Isaiah 52:5” (Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians)
To be renewed in faith, that is the flesh of the Lord. In the letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ignatius was rebuking the Donetists, who abstained from the Lord’s Supper because they denied that Christ had a body in the first place. They believed He died and suffered only in image, but not in reality. Citing the Lord’s Supper was an effective refutation for these heretics, since for the Eucharist to even spiritually be called “The Lord’s Body,” it presupposes that He had one in the first place. As for the language itself, it’s no different than the language Christ Himself used, which He also affirmed was yet still, in the case of the blood, “the fruit of the vine” that He would even drink in the Kingdom to come:
Mat 26:27-29 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; (28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
“Go have any opinion you want.”
Isn’t that exactly what you’re saying to me about yourself? Go have any opinion you want. I’ll stick to the facts.
“Facts? It is a belief first of all.”
Indeed, it is belief, first of all:
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
How long before...if you need facts you have no faith?
Amen Brother!
Romans Chapter 10
9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:..Read More[Read More]
10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation...Read More[Read More]
Romans Chapter 14
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God...Read More[Read More] 2 Corinthians Chapter 9
13 seeing that through the proving of you by this ministration they glorify God for the obedience of your confession unto the gospel of Christ, and for the liberality of your contribution unto them and unto all;..Read More[Read More]
Philippians Chapter 2
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the...Read More[Read More]
1 Timothy Chapter 6
12 Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses...Read More[Read More]
13 I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession;..Read More[Read More]
Hebrews Chapter 3
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;..Read More[Read More]
Hebrews Chapter 4
14 Having then a great high priest, who hath passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession...Read More[Read More]
Hebrews Chapter 10
23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:..Read More[Read More]
Hebrews Chapter 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...Read More[Read More]
Hebrews Chapter 13
15 Through him then let us offer up a sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of lips which make confession to his name...Read More[Read More]
James Chapter 5
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working...Read More[Read More]
1 John Chapter 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness...Read More[Read More] 1 John Chapter 2
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that confesseth the Son hath the Father also...Read More[Read More]
1 John Chapter 4
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:..Read More[Read More]
3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already...Read More[Read More]
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in...Read More[Read More]
2 John Chapter 1
7 For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist...Read More[Read More]
Revelation Chapter 3
5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels...Read More[Read More]
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life...
He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna...
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations,,,
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God...
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne...
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Be not afraid, only believe....this is the work of God.
(Rev 2:7,2:11,2:17,2:26,3:5,3:12,3:21,21:7,1 John 5:5,Mark 5:36,John 6:29))
You are correct re Melchizedek.
“Then King Melchizedek of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was a priest of God Most High. He blessed Abram, and said, “Blessed is Abram by God Most High, maker of heaven and earth. Blessed is God Most High, who has handed your enemies over to you.” Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.” (Genesis 14:18-20 GW)
See also...
“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Revelation 1:5-6 KJV)
“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father”...I have accepted that commission, ordained not by any man, but by Jesus Christ himself. He gives me the privilege of performing all priestly functions.
“I know of no biblical Protestant body that does NOT practice communion, very much the way Christ demonstrated it’.
You mean that maybe once a year bottle of grape juice and loaf of bread the good pastor brings to church and gives a few in the front role?
I was a Southern Baptist for 58 years and please do not insult my intelligence by telling me that that all protestant faiths participate in Holy Communion. The few protestant faiths that have held to some of Catholic doctrine, like the Lutherans, Episcopalians and Methodists, are the only protestant faiths that incorporate their version of communion as a weekly part of their services. The Jimmy Swaggart types, forget about it. It aint happening.
Satan is pleased.
Alexandrina Maria da Costa (1904-1955), declared Blessed by Pope JPII in 2004, was a mystic who lived on the Eucharist alone for 13 years. Jesus told her: “Your food will be my Flesh; your drink will be my Divine Blood … You are living by the Eucharist alone because I want to prove to the world the power of the Eucharist and the power of my life in souls.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrina_Maria_da_Costa
You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!! The only problem is that your emphasis is misplaced. He said: DO THIS as a remembrance of me. This is not a suggestion; it is a command.
Welcome home!
Doubtless, however, your authority to define the rules for how God presents Himself to mankind is taught in Scripture, right?
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