Posted on 05/27/2013 7:43:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
The Vatican has just announced that, despite what Pope Francis said in his homily earlier this week, atheists are still going to hell.
What a relief. For a brief moment there it was possible to imagine a brave new world of compassion, generosity and acceptance, not qualities we have come to associate with the Holy See.
Said Pope Francis this week: 'The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!'
That seemed like a pretty clear admission that people of other faiths and none have intrinsic worth to God and will be saved alongside the faithful. But this turned out to be wishful thinking.
Although they are otherwise good, moral people they are still doomed to burn in a lake of fire for having the temerity to have been born outside of Catholicism or having chosen to remain so.
The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, spelled it out for the world on Thursday. People who know about the Catholic church 'cannot be saved' if they 'refuse to enter her or remain in her,' he said.
So that's one tall order of eternal hellfire for the rest of us, then.
It makes for an interesting spectacle to see the infallible pope being corrected by his handlers, doesn't it? For a moment it was possible to recall the welcoming and indulgent style of the short lived Pope John Paul I in the unexpectedly all-embracing words of Pope Francis. But you'll recall how quickly John Paul I was replaced by the much more doctrinaire John Paul II.
(Excerpt) Read more at irishcentral.com ...
I really don’t know how the universe was created. I don’t think anyone does yet. However science is producing some useful hypotheses and data is being captured on a daily basis so I’m hopeful that we’ll get closer to a decent attempt at an Theory in the future. Not knowing isn’t something to be ashamed of, it’s what makes science interesting.
I’m not usually so fast out of the blocks....
Fair enough. Such humility is a refreshing change from what I have experienced in the past.
This is a severe case of compound bad reporting.
This Catholic bashing article calls the Pope “infallible”, as though the term is supposed to mean he can’t make a math or spelling error.
The original article also mischaracterized the Pope’s words and meaning, which is why the follow-up explanation was provided.
The Pope’s ordinal statement, while accurate, was also not presented “Ex-Cathedra”, which is the nature of an “infallible statement”.
I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. Allow me to repay the compliment. Have a good day, FRiend.
You are so right. Salvation is without reference to popes and preachers, dogmas and doctrines. Salvation is in Christ and Christ alone. In the book of Jonah we read, “Salvation is of the Lord.” Martin Luther rocked the world after God opened up the simple phrase from Romans 1:17 “the just shall live by faith,” which was quoting Habakkuk.
I see all manner of unbiblical assertions in this discussion thread. People asserting what they believe, what churches teach, what popes say. None of that matters. All that matters is what God said on the issue in His Word.
To that end, Romans 9 says this: “For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.”
Salvation isn’t a matter of man’s will (decisions of men) or man’s running (actions of men), but upon the Lord showing mercy upon whom HE will.
And then from Ephesians 1:
“3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
That passage is clear. Salvation is a matter of HIS will, HIS love, HIS predestinating choice, and all for HIS glory.
His sheep hear his voice and they will eventually believe and follow him. (my paraphrase of John 10:27) All who were chosen before the foundation of the world will hear the truth and they will respond with saving faith.
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” (John 6:37)
But natural men cannot come to Christ, only those drawn by the Father.
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:44)
Salvation is, from beginning to end, a matter of grace. Those who are saved were chosen before the foundation of the earth, they respond to the gospel, which is the “power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek” (Romans 1:16) and they are sustained in their belief by grace. Christ declared “My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me; and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” Can there be anything clearer than that? Nothing can pluck them from His nail-scarred hands!
In II Tim. 1:12 we read, “...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.” Notice how Paul speaks. He does not say, “I am persuaded that I am able to keep that which I have received unto that day;” but, “HE IS ABLE.” That is God Who is greater than all. He keeps us in the way of life. He preserves the saints so that they are assured that they shall persevere.
We read in Romans 8:29-30, “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” You notice, God did not tell His church that He maybe will glorify them, conditioned upon their own action; but God declares, “Your final salvation is already an accomplished fact.” God foreknew; God justified; God glorified. According to the eternal counsel of God that stands. We are preserved by our God.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
AMEN!
Atheists sure are skittish about the "nonexistent" hell, aren't they?
I hadn’t thought about the distinction in decades if ever but I do believe you folks are correct. There was no error in his statement.
Personally, I believe that salvation can be obtained through the Christian community, not just the Catholic Church per se. I feel the larger “church” IS the Christian community including the Catholic Church. If this were not the case why would the Catholic Church recognize Protestant baptisms? Guess I am more liberal on this one issue out of thousands.
Who is surprised that a populist / liberationist priest from South America should hold such a malleable theology that even the directly-spoken words of Christ are ignored? That Francis I deviates from established doctrine of the Roman church is the small story here; the headline is his direct contradiction of foundational Scripture which is the basis of Christian faith.
In Romans 4:3, Paul quoted Genesis when he said "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Just as Old Testament saints believed in the promised perfect Lamb that was yet to come, New Testament believers are saved by their belief in the accomplished life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of God who did what no mortal man could do - by paying the just penalty of death for those who believe in Him. As Paul wrote in Romans 3:22, "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe..." And even that faith itself is a gift, as Paul instructed in Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God."
These are scriptural essentials of Biblical Christianity, given from the highest source of authority. No institution of men is superior or even equal to the Word of God, so we must beware when any man or institution contradicts it. Given that much of the non-Christian world believes the bishop of Rome speaks for all Christians, the reign of Francis I looks to be a rocky ride of contradiction and compromise. This is a troubling sign when the West is just beginning to face the coming battle for its existence.
The Pope is right. The redemption is universal. The value of the sacrifice on Calvary is much more than the cost of all the sin of all the people of all time. As Paul put it, “God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.” And as the Apostle John said, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
It’s the terms of the redemption that are significant: “whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life.”
As old freeper, DrSteveJ (IIRC) used to say (and I paraphrase): “I can tell you I bought you a plane ticket to Hawaii, and that it’s at the counter waiting for you. If you don’t believe me and go board your flight, then you did not avail yourself of that flight to the island paradise.”
The Pope will probably have to correct the Vatican.
What I think the Pope is saying is that those who believe in Jesus are saved, not just Catholics, and that atheist can be saved IF they believe.
Francis explained himself, “The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart, do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!
I think he is trying to bring Protestants and Catholics together because when it comes down to it, we believe in the Trinity, Jesus came for us all and died for us all and arose. Many Protestant faiths vary, but most have the same common core belief's. I hope that is what he is trying to say. I see other priest added their comments, linking salvation to the Catholic Church only, but I think Pope Francis is trying to draw all Christians and Catholics who believe in the same God together. That is my hope anyway.
IBSHFOS (In Before Snake Handler From Outer Space!)
See #71 Linda.
I hope your post is correct. I would be excited to hear that.
That is the underlying theme of the movie Blade Runner.
I don’t see this as Francis changing the teachings of Jesus. He did come to redeem every human person. Whether or not we accept that redemption and act upon it is up to us. Does that make sense to you?
> I know some people don’t like her.
‘cause she’s nuts? No, not nuts. Acts crazy to gain a following.
Wow, did I make that claim? No I did not. I claimed that the death of Christ redeemed everyone but does not mean they will necessarily be saved. That is by the grace of Christ alone.
Does being Protestant necessarily mean you have known and rejected that what the Catholic Church teaches is true? Of course not. But if you once knew and believed and became Apostate then according to the Church you will go to hell. By the way this believing is much more than just going to Mass or even believing just some of what is taught. It means being fully convinced that all of what the Church teaches is true.
How would anyone know that they got there?
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