Posted on 05/09/2013 2:17:35 PM PDT by NYer
Ping!
“It is the Spirit himself whom we received in Baptism”
Water baptism in and of itself has no power to give the Holy Spirit. An example of this is with Cornelius and his family, who received the Holy Spirit prior to water immersion:
Act 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
If water baptism is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit, then every instance of the Holy Spirit filling/baptizing the believer must be at the instigation of water baptism. However, the scripture never teaches that the Spirit is bound to human activity. The Spirit, in all actuality, moves on man, reveals the person of Christ to man, and regenerates Him, all according to His own good purpose and will, and not on any foreseen works of the man.
Show me in Scripture where you get the notion that everyone has exactly the same plan for Salvation and that all are equal?
Peace be with you
“Show me in Scripture where you get the notion that everyone has exactly the same plan for Salvation and that all are equal?”
If there are a diversity of plans for exactly how salvation occurs, then it aids my position which denies that water baptism is required to receive the Holy Spirit. Since if water baptism really does give the Holy Spirit, then salvation is “the same” for everyone.
Of course, when I think of this question, I think in entirely different terms than you do. All those who receive the Holy Spirit, who are called, justified, and glorified, were predestinated by the sovereign will of God, and not according to any foreseen works, but rather that we should produce works:
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 9:11, 16 (11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)... (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Therefore, it is impossible for me to see the filling of the Holy Spirit as anything but the sovereign movement of God on the undeserving sinner. And when I think “plan” of salvation, I think of predestination, which is God’s plan to save the elect in His own time.
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How can you say, “Water baptism in and of itself has no power to give the Holy Spirit”?
“Jesus answered, ‘Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.” -John 3:5
By the example of Cornelius, who was baptized/filled by the Holy Spirit prior to water immersion. We can also add the Thief on the cross, yet you would say that it is impossible without water immersion. Water baptism, therefore, cannot be the agent of salvation, but the sign and the seal of a higher spiritual reality. When Christ speaks to Nicodemus, he does not harp on water, but instead harps on being born again “in the spirit.” It is the change in the heart of the man, the renewing of the soul by the sovereign will of God, that is really the most significant event in salvation. As Christ says, the Spirit moves, comparing it to the wind, “where it listeth.” IOW, the Spirit moves on man according to the sovereign will of God, thus gifting us the faith, and the power to do, and the will to proceed with an act of water baptism which you ascribe to the power of man.
Serious typo: Comparing HIM*, not it*, the Holy Spirit, to the Wind.
| 15 | For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" |
| 16 | it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, |
| 17 | and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. |
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A Sacrament:
An outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
The Baltimore Catechism: Part Three: The Sacraments and Prayer, Baptism
The Baltimore Catechism: Part Three: The Sacraments and Prayer, The Sacraments
“Do you understand the Sacraments of the Catholic Church?”
Of course I do. I simply reject them, since they propose that grace or the Holy Spirit can be delivered by the hand and will of man, when Christ says it is not by blood, or by the will of the flesh, or by the will of man, but by the will of God.
Being baptized Catholic (and rebaptized when I actually believed, as opposed to a child who neither believes or even knows anything), I know that baptism in and of itself does not regenerate a human being. Baptism does not bring about a rebith in the Spirit. Otherwise, I should have lived a regenerated life, and every Catholic child would grow up to be a good Catholic, as the scripture teaches that God, who starts a work in you, sees the work to its completion.
The sacraments of the Catholic Church, therefore, do not have any of the power that the scripture would suggest they should have. There is an absence of evidence for a difference between the baptized child and the unbaptized child when they grow up. The only real difference are in those who have been born again by the Spirit.
Why even bother with baptism then?
Wrote any better scripture yourself lately?
“Why even bother with baptism then?”
To be baptized in the name of someone, in the Jewish 1st century context, is the same as saying that they are publicly agreeing to receive this person as their lawgiver and teacher. Hence, the Jews were baptized “unto Moses.” Hence the Jews required that converts to Judaism be baptized as a sign of their conversion. Hence all Christians are to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as a sign of their new commitment to Christianity. It is not therefore the cause of salvation, but is the result of it, as we see with Cornelius or the Thief on the cross.
“Wrote any better scripture yourself lately?”
Let me correct that statement then. The sacraments, as they exist in Catholicism, do not exist in the scripture. But if they did exist in the scripture as agents of grace dispensing, they should have the power of Grace that is in the scripture. The lack of outward evidence for any spiritual change in the individual is damning, therefore, to Catholic pretensions about their church practices. The end result of salvation is always a change in the individual. If these carnal practices are not capable of producing fruit, it stands to reason then that they should be hewn down and a better way searched for.
One size does not fit all. We know that for some water baptism is not required for some, but that does not mean it is not required for others. Presumption is every bit as much of a sin against hope as is despair.
Peace be with you
Why or why would you want to rejct the power of the priest given in his ordination (another Sacrament).
This is the power of Jesus.
I can’t believe that you reject the power of Jesus. At least that is what you are seeming to say.
It is damning of the people who leave the One Holy Apostolic Church to pursue their own theological fantasies.
Men reject God and make "shipwreck concerning the faith" (1 Timothy 1:19) all the time. Doesn't prove anything about the Holy Sacraments.
**The sacraments of the Catholic Church, therefore, do not have any of the power that the scripture would suggest they should have. **
LOL!
I can’t believe that you are saying these words, rejecting the Scriptures that you build sola scriptura on.
Oh my!
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