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The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
Is God a Trinity? ^ | Various | Various

Posted on 04/15/2013 5:06:15 PM PDT by DouglasKC

The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine

Few understand how the Trinity doctrine came to be accepted - several centuries after the Bible was completed! Yet its roots go back much farther in history.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

Most people assume that everything that bears the label "Christian" must have originated with Jesus Christ and His early followers. But this is definitely not the case. All we have to do is look at the words of Jesus Christ and His apostles to see that this is clearly not true.

The historical record shows that, just as Jesus and the New Testament writers foretold, various heretical ideas and teachers rose up from within the early Church and infiltrated it from without. Christ Himself warned His followers: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name . . . and will deceive many" (Matthew 24:4-5).

You can read many similar warnings in other passages (such as Matthew 24:11; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 1 John 2:18-19, 26; 4:1-3).

Barely two decades after Christ's death and resurrection, the apostle Paul wrote that many believers were already "turning away . . . to a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6). He wrote that he was forced to contend with "false apostles, deceitful workers" who were fraudulently "transforming themselves into apostles of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:13). One of the major problems he had to deal with was "false brethren" (verse 26).

By late in the first century, as we see from 3 John 9-10, conditions had grown so dire that false ministers openly refused to receive representatives of the apostle John and were excommunicating true Christians from the Church!

Of this troubling period Edward Gibbon, the famed historian, wrote in his classic work The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire of a "dark cloud that hangs over the first age of the church" (1821, Vol. 2, p. 111). It wasn't long before true servants of God became a marginalized and scattered minority among those calling themselves Christian. A very different religion, now compromised with many concepts and practices rooted in ancient paganism (such mixing of religious beliefs being known as syncretism, common in the Roman Empire at the time), took hold and transformed the faith founded by Jesus Christ.

Historian Jesse Hurlbut says of this time of transformation: "We name the last generation of the first century, from 68 to 100 A.D., 'The Age of Shadows,' partly because the gloom of persecution was over the church, but more especially because of all the periods in the [church's] history, it is the one about which we know the least. We have no longer the clear light of the Book of Acts to guide us; and no author of that age has filled the blank in the history . . ."For fifty years after St. Paul's life a curtain hangs over the church, through which we strive vainly to look; and when at last it rises, about 120 A.D. with the writings of the earliest church fathers, we find a church in many aspects very different from that in the days of St. Peter and St. Paul" ( The Story of the Christian Church, 1970, p. 33).

This "very different" church would grow in power and influence, and within a few short centuries would come to dominate even the mighty Roman Empire! By the second century, faithful members of the Church, Christ's "little flock" (Luke 12:32), had largely been scattered by waves of deadly persecution. They held firmly to the biblical truth about Jesus Christ and God the Father, though they were persecuted by the Roman authorities as well as those who professed Christianity but were in reality teaching "another Jesus" and a "different gospel" (2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9).

Different ideas about Christ's divinity lead to conflict

This was the setting in which the doctrine of the Trinity emerged. In those early decades after Jesus Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. Was He man? Was He God? Was He God appearing as a man? Was He an illusion? Was He a mere man who became God? Was He created by God the Father, or did He exist eternally with the Father?

All of these ideas had their proponents. The unity of belief of the original Church was lost as new beliefs, many borrowed or adapted from pagan religions, replaced the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

Let us be clear that when it comes to the intellectual and theological debates in those early centuries that led to the formulation of the Trinity, the true Church was largely absent from the scene, having been driven underground. (See the chapter "The Rise of a Counterfeit Christianity " in our free booklet The Church Jesus Built for an overview of this critical period.).

For this reason, in that stormy period we often see debates not between truth and error, but between one error and a different error— a fact seldom recognized by many modern scholars yet critical for our understanding.

A classic example of this was the dispute over the nature of Christ that led the Roman emperor Constantine the Great to convene the Council of Nicaea (in modern-day western Turkey) in A.D. 325.

Constantine, although held by many to be the first "Christian" Roman Emperor, was actually a sun-worshiper who was only baptized on his deathbed. During his reign he had his eldest son and his wife murdered. He was also vehemently anti-Semitic, referring in one of his edicts to "the detestable Jewish crowd" and "the customs of these most wicked men"—customs that were in fact rooted in the Bible and practiced by Jesus and the apostles.

As emperor in a period of great tumult within the Roman Empire, Constantine was challenged with keeping the empire unified. He recognized the value of religion in uniting his empire. This was, in fact, one of his primary motivations in accepting and sanctioning the "Christian" religion (which, by this time, had drifted far from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles and was Christian in name only)

. But now Constantine faced a new challenge. Religion researcher Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God that "one of the first problems that had to be solved was the doctrine of God . . . a new danger arose from within which split Christians into bitterly warring camps" (1993, p. 106).

Debate over the nature of God at the Council of Nicaea

Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea in the year 325 as much for political reasons—for unity in the empire—as religious ones. The primary issue at that time came to be known as the Arian controversy.

"In the hope of securing for his throne the support of the growing body of Christians he had shown them considerable favor and it was to his interest to have the church vigorous and united. The Arian controversy was threatening its unity and menacing its strength. He therefore undertook to put an end to the trouble. It was suggested to him, perhaps by the Spanish bishop Hosius, who was influential at court, that if a synod were to meet representing the whole church both east and west, it might be possible to restore harmony.

"Constantine himself of course neither knew nor cared anything about the matter in dispute but he was eager to bring the controversy to a close, and Hosius' advice appealed to him as sound" (Arthur Cushman McGiffert, A History of Christian Thought, 1954, Vol. 1, p. 258).

Arius, a priest from Alexandria, Egypt, taught that Christ, because He was the Son of God, must have had a beginning and therefore was a special creation of God. Further, if Jesus was the Son, the Father of necessity must be older. Opposing the teachings of Arius was Athanasius, a deacon also from Alexandria. His view was an early form of Trinitarianism wherein the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were one but at the same time distinct from each other.

The decision as to which view the church council would accept was to a large extent arbitrary. Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God: "When the bishops gathered at Nicaea on May 20, 325, to resolve the crisis, very few would have shared Athanasius's view of Christ. Most held a position midway between Athanasius and Arius" (p. 110).

As emperor, Constantine was in the unusual position of deciding church doctrine even though he was not really a Christian. (The following year is when he had both his wife and son murdered, as previously mentioned).

Historian Henry Chadwick attests, "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun" ( The Early Church, 1993, p. 122). As to the emperor's embrace of Christianity, Chadwick admits, "His conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear" (p. 125).

Chadwick does say that Constantine's deathbed baptism itself "implies no doubt about his Christian belief," it being common for rulers to put off baptism to avoid accountability for things like torture and executing criminals (p. 127). But this justification doesn't really help the case for the emperor's conversion being genuine.

Norbert Brox, a professor of church history, confirms that Constantine was never actually a converted Christian: "Constantine did not experience any conversion; there are no signs of a change of faith in him. He never said of himself that he had turned to another god . . . At the time when he turned to Christianity, for him this was Sol Invictus (the victorious sun god)" ( A Concise History of the Early Church, 1996, p. 48).

When it came to the Nicene Council, The Encyclopaedia Britannica states: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination" (1971 edition, Vol. 6, "Constantine," p. 386).

With the emperor's approval, the Council rejected the minority view of Arius and, having nothing definitive with which to replace it, approved the view of Athanasius—also a minority view. The church was left in the odd position of officially supporting, from that point forward, the decision made at Nicaea to endorse a belief held by only a minority of those attending.

The groundwork for official acceptance of the Trinity was now laid—but it took more than three centuries after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for this unbiblical teaching to emerge!

Nicene decision didn't end the debate

The Council of Nicaea did not end the controversy. Karen Armstrong explains: "Athanasius managed to impose his theology on the delegates . . . with the emperor breathing down their necks . . .

"The show of agreement pleased Constantine, who had no understanding of the theological issues, but in fact there was no unanimity at Nicaea. After the council, the bishops went on teaching as they had before, and the Arian crisis continued for another sixty years. Arius and his followers fought back and managed to regain imperial favor. Athanasius was exiled no fewer than five times. It was very difficult to make his creed stick" (pp. 110-111).

The ongoing disagreements were at times violent and bloody. Of the aftermath of the Council of Nicaea, noted historian Will Durant writes, "Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years (342-3) than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome" ( The Story of Civilization, Vol. 4: The Age of Faith, 1950, p. 8). Atrociously, while claiming to be Christian many believers fought and slaughtered one another over their differing views of God!

Of the following decades, Professor Harold Brown, cited earlier, writes: "During the middle decades of this century, from 340 to 380, the history of doctrine looks more like the history of court and church intrigues and social unrest . . . The central doctrines hammered out in this period often appear to have been put through by intrigue or mob violence rather than by the common consent of Christendom led by the Holy Spirit" (p. 119).

Debate shifts to the nature of the Holy Spirit

Disagreements soon centered around another issue, the nature of the Holy Spirit. In that regard, the statement issued at the Council of Nicaea said simply, "We believe in the Holy Spirit." This "seemed to have been added to Athanasius's creed almost as an afterthought," writes Karen Armstrong. "People were confused about the Holy Spirit. Was it simply a synonym for God or was it something more?" (p. 115).

Professor Ryrie, also cited earlier,writes, "In the second half of the fourth century, three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor [today central Turkey] gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity" (p. 65). They proposed an idea that was a step beyond Athanasius' view—that God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit were coequal and together in one being, yet also distinct from one another.

These men—Basil, bishop of Caesarea, his brother Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus—were all "trained in Greek philosophy" (Armstrong, p. 113), which no doubt affected their outlook and beliefs (see "Greek Philosophy's Influence on the Trinity Doctrine," beginning on page 14).

In their view, as Karen Armstrong explains, "the Trinity only made sense as a mystical or spiritual experience . . . It was not a logical or intellectual formulation but an imaginative paradigm that confounded reason. Gregory of Nazianzus made this clear when he explained that contemplation of the Three in One induced a profound and overwhelming emotion that confounded thought and intellectual clarity.

"'No sooner do I conceive of the One than I am illumined by the splendor of the Three; no sooner do I distinguish Three than I am carried back into the One. When I think of any of the Three, I think of him as the whole, and my eyes are filled, and the greater part of what I am thinking escapes me'" (p. 117). Little wonder that, as Armstrong concludes, "For many Western Christians . . . the Trinity is simply baffling" (ibid.).

Ongoing disputes lead to the Council of Constantinople

In the year 381, 44 years after Constantine's death, Emperor Theodosius the Great convened the Council of Constantinople (today Istanbul, Turkey) to resolve these disputes. Gregory of Nazianzus, recently appointed as archbishop of Constantinople, presided over the council and urged the adoption of his view of the Holy Spirit.

Historian Charles Freeman states: "Virtually nothing is known of the theological debates of the council of 381, but Gregory was certainly hoping to get some acceptance of his belief that the Spirit was consubstantial with the Father [meaning that the persons are of the same being, as substance in this context denotes individual quality].

"Whether he dealt with the matter clumsily or whether there was simply no chance of consensus, the 'Macedonians,' bishops who refused to accept the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, left the council . . . Typically, Gregory berated the bishops for preferring to have a majority rather than simply accepting 'the Divine Word' of the Trinity on his authority" ( A.D. 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Dawn of the Monotheistic State, 2008, p. 96).

Gregory soon became ill and had to withdraw from the council. Who would preside now? "So it was that one Nectarius, an elderly city senator who had been a popular prefect in the city as a result of his patronage of the games, but who was still not a baptized Christian, was selected . . . Nectarius appeared to know no theology, and he had to be initiated into the required faith before being baptized and consecrated" (Freeman, pp. 97-98).

Bizarrely, a man who up to this point wasn't a Christian was appointed to preside over a major church council tasked with determining what it would teach regarding the nature of God!

The Trinity becomes official doctrine

The teaching of the three Cappadocian theologians "made it possible for the Council of Constantinople (381) to affirm the divinity of the Holy Spirit, which up to that point had nowhere been clearly stated, not even in Scripture" ( The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, "God," p. 568).

The council adopted a statement that translates into English as, in part: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages . . . And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets . . ." The statement also affirmed belief "in one holy, catholic [meaning in this context universal, whole or complete] and apostolic Church . . ."

With this declaration in 381, which would become known as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, the Trinity as generally understood today became the official belief and teaching concerning the nature of God.

Theology professor Richard Hanson observes that a result of the council's decision "was to reduce the meanings of the word 'God' from a very large selection of alternatives to one only," such that "when Western man today says 'God' he means the one, sole exclusive [Trinitarian] God and nothing else" ( Studies in Christian Antiquity, 1985,pp. 243-244).

Thus, Emperor Theodosius—who himself had been baptized only a year before convening the council—was, like Constantine nearly six decades earlier, instrumental in establishing major church doctrine. As historian Charles Freeman notes: "It is important to remember that Theodosius had no theological background of his own and that he put in place as dogma a formula containing intractable philosophical problems of which he would have been unaware. In effect, the emperor's laws had silenced the debate when it was still unresolved" (p. 103).

Other beliefs about the nature of God banned

Now that a decision had been reached, Theodosius would tolerate no dissenting views. He issued his own edict that read: "We now order that all churches are to be handed over to the bishops who profess Father, Son and Holy Spirit of a single majesty, of the same glory, of one splendor, who establish no difference by sacrilegious separation, but (who affirm) the order of the Trinity by recognizing the Persons and uniting the Godhead" (quoted by Richard Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God, 1999, p. 223).

Another edict from Theodosius went further in demanding adherence to the new teaching: "Let us believe the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgement, they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles [assemblies] the name of churches.

"They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation, and the second the punishment which our authority, in accordance with the will of Heaven, shall decide to inflict" (reproduced in Documents of the Christian Church, Henry Bettenson, editor, 1967, p. 22).

Thus we see that a teaching that was foreign to Jesus Christ, never taught by the apostles and unknown to the other biblical writers, was locked into place and the true biblical revelation about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was locked out. Any who disagreed were, in accordance with the edicts of the emperor and church authorities, branded heretics and dealt with accordingly. Trinity doctrine decided by trial and error.

This unusual chain of events is why theology professors Anthony and Richard Hanson would summarize the story in their book Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith by noting that the adoption of the Trinity doctrine came as a result of "a process of theological exploration which lasted at least three hundred years . . . In fact it was a process of trial and error (almost of hit and miss), in which the error was by no means all confined to the unorthodox . . . It would be foolish to represent the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as having been achieved by any other way" (1980, p. 172).

They then conclude: "This was a long, confused, process whereby different schools of thought in the Church worked out for themselves, and then tried to impose on others, their answer to the question, 'How divine is Jesus Christ?' . . . If ever there was a controversy decided by the method of trial and error, it was this one" (p. 175).

Anglican churchman and Oxford University lecturer K.E. Kirk revealingly writes of the adoption of the doctrine of the Trinity: "The theological and philosophical vindication of the divinity of the Spirit begins in the fourth century; we naturally turn to the writers of that period to discover what grounds they have for their belief. To our surprise, we are forced to admit that they have none . . .

"This failure of Christian theology . . . to produce logical justification of the cardinal point in its trinitarian doctrine is of the greatest possible significance. We are forced, even before turning to the question of the vindication of the doctrine by experience, to ask ourselves whether theology or philosophy has ever produced any reasons why its belief should be Trinitarian" ("The Evolution of the Doctrine of the Trinity," published in Essays on the Trinity and the Incarnation, A.E.J. Rawlinson, editor, 1928, pp. 221-222). Why believe a teaching that isn't biblical?

This, in brief, is the amazing story of how the doctrine of the Trinity came to be introduced—and how those who refused to accept it came to be branded as heretics or unbelievers.

But should we really base our view of God on a doctrine that isn't spelled out in the Bible, that wasn't formalized until three centuries after the time of Jesus Christ and the apostles, that was debated and argued for decades (not to mention for centuries since), that was imposed by religious councils presided over by novices or nonbelievers and that was "decided by the method of trial and error"?

Of course not. We should instead look to the Word of God—not to ideas of men—to see how our Creator reveals Himself!


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: god; jesus; origins; trinity
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To: editor-surveyor

“And absolutely nothing confirms anything CARM says.”


I already confirmed what CARM said. It’s in my first post. I quoted straight from the UCG confirming their teachings on the Godhead, or, should I say, polytheism.

Just because CARM probably lists whatever YOUR religion is as a cult as well, doesn’t mean we have to take a prejudiced response that ignores the facts.


81 posted on 04/15/2013 8:22:30 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: count-your-change

“That oneness was not in a godhead or such but purpose and actions, etc.”


Since Jesus is called God, and calls Himself God, and there is only one God, your position is safely refuted by the whole of the scriptures.


82 posted on 04/15/2013 8:24:04 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: nonsporting

I wasn’t referring to private revelation.


83 posted on 04/15/2013 8:25:44 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
>>“And yet Jesus did this:”

Which implies the inferiority of God the Son, how? Whether the Son does all that the Father doeth, or the Holy Spirit is sent forth from the Father and the Son, does not imply inferiority in God.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Heb 1:8-12 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; (12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Either Christ is Almighty, and the Father is Almighty, or the Holy Spirit is almighty, or these three are not one God.

I don't dispute that, and indeed that's [part of] my point, but certain things can be taken wrongly... like the underlined portion. (And Jesus always takes an inferior position to God unless he's equating God and Himself [he said "I am" which was to claim to be God], but never a superior position; indeed 'meek' is the only attribute he ascribed to Himself.)
Phil 2:5-7
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;*
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

* some translations say "clung to" or "grasped at" for "be used to his own advantage".

My point is that Jesus seems to very conscientiously say/do "your will be done" in preference to his own, illustrated in detail not only in the Lord's Prayer, but when he prayed before his death... he chooses a subordinate position.

84 posted on 04/15/2013 8:26:21 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

>> “How about you prove it?” <<

.
The Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew such as the Breslau and the Shem Tov demonstrate that fact quite well. They do not contain the anomalies that are found in the Greek MS.


85 posted on 04/15/2013 8:26:56 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

“Hebrew originals were translated into Greek.”


Wait a minute! I missed this! So are you saying that 2 Timothy was originally written in Hebrew before it was translated into Greek??? Can you please provide me this Hebrew original of the Greek New Testament which proves that the New Testament in greek is all wrong?


86 posted on 04/15/2013 8:27:59 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: OneWingedShark

>> “he chooses a subordinate position.” <<

.
The gospels declare that he accepted a lower position to be born of flesh and blood, “a little lower than the angels.”


87 posted on 04/15/2013 8:29:11 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

“The Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew such as the Breslau and the Shem Tov demonstrate that fact quite well. They do not contain the anomalies that are found in the Greek MS.”


Woah woah woah! We were talking about the scriptures I specifically cited which showed that the Apostles believed themselves to be writing scripture.

Where’s your proof that THOSE scriptures are all wrong?

As for Matthew, I’m not aware of any anomalies you could possibly be referring to, and obviously we were not discussing it. But, since you brought it up, those are Rabbanical translations of the Greek Gospel of Matthew. You’re still on the hook for evidence, even when you try to red herring me.


88 posted on 04/15/2013 8:31:41 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: editor-surveyor

“The gospels declare that he accepted a lower position to be born of flesh and blood, “a little lower than the angels.””


In His nature as a Man. Are you saying that His nature as God can be made “a little lower than the angels?” You can’t hold that position unless you are also a polytheist, as God can’t cease being Almighty, like Jesus is called here:

Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


89 posted on 04/15/2013 8:33:39 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

The fact that the NT writings were Hebrew is showing up in the collections of MS of the Soviet Jews in St. Petersburg.

They had a large part of the NT writings, and they differ in very important ways, such as the continuity of Hebrew terms and colloquialisms that are very broken in the Greek MS


90 posted on 04/15/2013 8:34:05 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

>> “Are you saying that His nature as God can be made “a little lower than the angels?” <<

.
No, but the reference to which I responded was ignoring the obvious declarations.


91 posted on 04/15/2013 8:36:22 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Also, you are abusing the term polytheist.


92 posted on 04/15/2013 8:38:14 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

“The fact that the NT writings were Hebrew is showing up in the collections of MS of the Soviet Jews in St. Petersburg.”


Really? I just googled it and it said it was written about the 14th or 13th century. Pretty sure the New Testament was written in the first century, most of it before the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70AD. Only John, who lived longer, produced works after that. And you still haven’t provided any evidence or proof that the texts I cited SPECIFICALLY were actually written in Hebrew, and then translated to Greek. You only told me that those medieval rabbanical translations somehow disproved the “anomalies” in Matthew, whatever they are.

Can you please cite serious evidence instead of dodging my very specific requests?


93 posted on 04/15/2013 8:38:35 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: editor-surveyor

“Also, you are abusing the term polytheist.”


belief in or worship of more than one god. — poly·the·ist

The UCG believes in more than one God and openly argues for it. I thought you said you weren’t UCG?

So what religion ARE you, exactly? LDS? Jehovah’s Witness? Oneness Pentecostals? Something so weird even I haven’t heard it before?


94 posted on 04/15/2013 8:40:51 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: editor-surveyor
The gospels declare that he accepted a lower position to be born of flesh and blood, “a little lower than the angels.”

And they are equally clear that Jesus chooses to do what pleases the Father.

95 posted on 04/15/2013 8:41:55 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: editor-surveyor

“No,”


If “No,” then you believe that Jesus is God. Which means Jesus is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and self-existent, having no beginning and no end. As He, in both the Old and New Testament declares, “I am the First and the Last, and there is no other God beside me.”

If that’s the case, what exactly are you disputing?


96 posted on 04/15/2013 8:42:57 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: DouglasKC

**These men—Basil, bishop of Caesarea, his brother Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus—were all “trained in Greek philosophy” (Armstrong, p. 113), which no doubt affected their outlook and beliefs (see “Greek Philosophy’s Influence on the Trinity Doctrine,” beginning on page 14).**

All Catholic Saints and one a Doctor/Teacher of the Church.

http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/


97 posted on 04/15/2013 8:51:36 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
“The union of the names of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit proves they are equal one with another. It would be absurd to place the Father and two “inferior” created beings with the name of the Father in this solemn rite.”

Whether absurd or not in your view is not decisive so we'll move on to whether using terms, (father,son, holy spirit are not names), together makes them equal.
No more than using Abraham,Isaac and Jacob together makes all three equal.

The Father has a name, the Son has a name but name the holy spirit.

“Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

The angels instructed Mary and Joseph to name their firstborn Jesus not Emmanuel and Jesus was never referred to by that name. Evidently Matt. 1:23 means something other than people would use Emmanuel as a proper name for Jesus.

Most Jewish names had a meaning such as “Jah is Lord” but the person so named was not being called God.

98 posted on 04/15/2013 8:51:40 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: F15Eagle

BTTT!


99 posted on 04/15/2013 8:52:57 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

>> “ Pretty sure the New Testament was written in the first century, most of it before the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70AD” <<

.
Yes, and that was in Hebrew. The only NT author that was even capable of writing any other language was Paul, but Hebrew was his language without a doubt, since he was a scholar of the Hebrew scriptures, and a Pharisee.

Do you think any of the originals exist? That would be impossible, biologically, since they were written on skins and parchments that would decompose to dust.

You need to understand that Hebrew is the language of YHVH, and of his people. It speaks not just in words, but also in pictures, each character being a picture used symbolically.

Yeshua didn’t bring a new faith to his people; he fulfilled the ancient faith, and it cannot be fully propagated in any language but Hebrew.


100 posted on 04/15/2013 8:53:04 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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