Posted on 04/15/2013 5:06:15 PM PDT by DouglasKC
“And absolutely nothing confirms anything CARM says.”
I already confirmed what CARM said. It’s in my first post. I quoted straight from the UCG confirming their teachings on the Godhead, or, should I say, polytheism.
Just because CARM probably lists whatever YOUR religion is as a cult as well, doesn’t mean we have to take a prejudiced response that ignores the facts.
“That oneness was not in a godhead or such but purpose and actions, etc.”
Since Jesus is called God, and calls Himself God, and there is only one God, your position is safely refuted by the whole of the scriptures.
I wasn’t referring to private revelation.
Which implies the inferiority of God the Son, how? Whether the Son does all that the Father doeth, or the Holy Spirit is sent forth from the Father and the Son, does not imply inferiority in God.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Heb 1:8-12 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; (12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Either Christ is Almighty, and the Father is Almighty, or the Holy Spirit is almighty, or these three are not one God.
I don't dispute that, and indeed that's [part of] my point, but certain things can be taken wrongly... like the underlined portion. (And Jesus always takes an inferior position to God unless he's equating God and Himself [he said "I am" which was to claim to be God], but never a superior position; indeed 'meek' is the only attribute he ascribed to Himself.)
Phil 2:5-7
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;*
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
* some translations say "clung to" or "grasped at" for "be used to his own advantage".
My point is that Jesus seems to very conscientiously say/do "your will be done" in preference to his own, illustrated in detail not only in the Lord's Prayer, but when he prayed before his death... he chooses a subordinate position.
>> “How about you prove it?” <<
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The Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew such as the Breslau and the Shem Tov demonstrate that fact quite well. They do not contain the anomalies that are found in the Greek MS.
“Hebrew originals were translated into Greek.”
Wait a minute! I missed this! So are you saying that 2 Timothy was originally written in Hebrew before it was translated into Greek??? Can you please provide me this Hebrew original of the Greek New Testament which proves that the New Testament in greek is all wrong?
>> “he chooses a subordinate position.” <<
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The gospels declare that he accepted a lower position to be born of flesh and blood, “a little lower than the angels.”
“The Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew such as the Breslau and the Shem Tov demonstrate that fact quite well. They do not contain the anomalies that are found in the Greek MS.”
Woah woah woah! We were talking about the scriptures I specifically cited which showed that the Apostles believed themselves to be writing scripture.
Where’s your proof that THOSE scriptures are all wrong?
As for Matthew, I’m not aware of any anomalies you could possibly be referring to, and obviously we were not discussing it. But, since you brought it up, those are Rabbanical translations of the Greek Gospel of Matthew. You’re still on the hook for evidence, even when you try to red herring me.
“The gospels declare that he accepted a lower position to be born of flesh and blood, “a little lower than the angels.””
In His nature as a Man. Are you saying that His nature as God can be made “a little lower than the angels?” You can’t hold that position unless you are also a polytheist, as God can’t cease being Almighty, like Jesus is called here:
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
The fact that the NT writings were Hebrew is showing up in the collections of MS of the Soviet Jews in St. Petersburg.
They had a large part of the NT writings, and they differ in very important ways, such as the continuity of Hebrew terms and colloquialisms that are very broken in the Greek MS
>> “Are you saying that His nature as God can be made “a little lower than the angels?” <<
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No, but the reference to which I responded was ignoring the obvious declarations.
Also, you are abusing the term polytheist.
“The fact that the NT writings were Hebrew is showing up in the collections of MS of the Soviet Jews in St. Petersburg.”
Really? I just googled it and it said it was written about the 14th or 13th century. Pretty sure the New Testament was written in the first century, most of it before the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70AD. Only John, who lived longer, produced works after that. And you still haven’t provided any evidence or proof that the texts I cited SPECIFICALLY were actually written in Hebrew, and then translated to Greek. You only told me that those medieval rabbanical translations somehow disproved the “anomalies” in Matthew, whatever they are.
Can you please cite serious evidence instead of dodging my very specific requests?
“Also, you are abusing the term polytheist.”
belief in or worship of more than one god. — poly·the·ist
The UCG believes in more than one God and openly argues for it. I thought you said you weren’t UCG?
So what religion ARE you, exactly? LDS? Jehovah’s Witness? Oneness Pentecostals? Something so weird even I haven’t heard it before?
And they are equally clear that Jesus chooses to do what pleases the Father.
“No,”
If “No,” then you believe that Jesus is God. Which means Jesus is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and self-existent, having no beginning and no end. As He, in both the Old and New Testament declares, “I am the First and the Last, and there is no other God beside me.”
If that’s the case, what exactly are you disputing?
**These men—Basil, bishop of Caesarea, his brother Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus—were all “trained in Greek philosophy” (Armstrong, p. 113), which no doubt affected their outlook and beliefs (see “Greek Philosophy’s Influence on the Trinity Doctrine,” beginning on page 14).**
All Catholic Saints and one a Doctor/Teacher of the Church.
http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/
Whether absurd or not in your view is not decisive so we'll move on to whether using terms, (father,son, holy spirit are not names), together makes them equal.
No more than using Abraham,Isaac and Jacob together makes all three equal.
The Father has a name, the Son has a name but name the holy spirit.
“Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
The angels instructed Mary and Joseph to name their firstborn Jesus not Emmanuel and Jesus was never referred to by that name. Evidently Matt. 1:23 means something other than people would use Emmanuel as a proper name for Jesus.
Most Jewish names had a meaning such as “Jah is Lord” but the person so named was not being called God.
BTTT!
>> “ Pretty sure the New Testament was written in the first century, most of it before the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70AD” <<
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Yes, and that was in Hebrew. The only NT author that was even capable of writing any other language was Paul, but Hebrew was his language without a doubt, since he was a scholar of the Hebrew scriptures, and a Pharisee.
Do you think any of the originals exist? That would be impossible, biologically, since they were written on skins and parchments that would decompose to dust.
You need to understand that Hebrew is the language of YHVH, and of his people. It speaks not just in words, but also in pictures, each character being a picture used symbolically.
Yeshua didn’t bring a new faith to his people; he fulfilled the ancient faith, and it cannot be fully propagated in any language but Hebrew.
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