The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine

Is God a Trinity? ^ | Various | Various

[Diamond]

The term “lord” was broad in meaning as Paul noted and even David was properly called “lord”.

Granted that it can be used simply as a title of respect, is David an omnipresent Lord who receives prayer? Omnipresent as in, "And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”? You did not answer as to whether or not it was improper for Paul or Steven (or anyone else for that matter) to pray to Jesus as they did.

The word "Lord" is used in the Testament at least 150 times it is used of "God" Himself, and around 250 times it is used to describe "Jesus." Paul also quotes Old Testament passages referring to Jehovah and apples them to Christ, using the word "Lord", for example, Joel 2:32 quoted in Romans 10: -

^9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; ¹⁰ for with the heart a person believes, ^[f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, ^[g]resulting in salvation. ¹¹ For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be ^[h]disappointed.” ¹² For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; ¹³ for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Bad analogy, she never did have his “prerogatives” or power to lay aside. So do you mean Jesus as a human was no longer part of “Deity”? Remember Jesus called the Father his God after he was resurrected.

So because she never had her husband's authority or power to lay aside, she is not a human being possessing a human nature?! You are committing a category fallacy by confusing and conflating two different kinds of things; namely nature and authority. A human father may have greater authority than his human son, but they are still the same kind of being with the same human nature, aren't they?

³⁹ You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, ⁴⁰ yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Cordially,

[count-your-change]

You're the one that made this comment:

“Can it be proved that the Father is “Jehovah” from Old Testament passages which are quoted in the New Testament to refer to the Father?
Yes? In the very same way it can be proved that Jesus is “Jehovah” from Old Testament passages which are quoted in the New Testament to refer to Jesus:......”

The Father is Jehovah and Jesus is Jehovah? Then it follows Jesus is the Father by your logic and reasoning. Yet you say I'm dividing and confusing.

“A human father may have greater authority than his human son, but they are still the same kind of being with the same human nature, aren't they?”

Then the son would not be equal in power with the father per your definition of the trinity nor would the son by calling his father “my God” be part of that god, would he? Nor would the son be the father as per your description above, would he?

Was Paul and Stephen praying to Jesus? Was John praying to those he responded to in his vision?

“A human father may have greater authority than his human son, but they are still the same kind of being with the same human nature, aren't they?”

And a spirit father is greater than a human son in nature, authority, power, knowledge, etc. isn't he, not an equal as the trinity definition says.

As Paul said Jesus did not view equality with his father as something to grasped at but took the (morphe) form of a servant, a human servant, a fully human servant, whose Father was greater than he was.(Phil. 2:6, John 14:28)

[Diamond]

The Father is Jehovah and Jesus is Jehovah? Then it follows Jesus is the Father by your logic and reasoning.

No, it does not follow, except if one presupposes, as you do, that the One God is not a tri-personal Being and that Jesus is some sort of created being or merely a man. The Father is Jehovah God. The Son is Jehovah God. The Holy Spirit is Jevoah God. Three distinct Persons in the One Jehovah God.

Then the son would not be equal in power with the father per your definition of the trinity nor would the son by calling his father “my God” be part of that god, would he? Nor would the son be the father as per your description above, would he?

Jesus is fully God and fully Man. In Him dwells all the fullness of the Deity in human form. We do not deny the Scriptures that teach his humanity. He has two natures united in one person, human and divine. You focus on the Scriptures highlighting his humanity but you ignore the Scriptures demonstrating his Deity. We accept all of them.

Was Paul and Stephen praying to Jesus?

Yes:
Stephen: "And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59)
Paul: ⁸ Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. ⁹ But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. ¹⁰ That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
2 Corinthians 12:8-10

Was John praying to those he responded to in his vision?

People in the Bible who conversed with angels were not praying to them.

And a spirit father is greater than a human son in nature, authority, power, knowledge, etc. isn't he, not an equal as the trinity definition says.

With respect to the human nature of the Son, yes. But not with respect to the Divine nature of the Son. The incarnate Son has two natures united in one Person; human and divine. You are unable to reconcile the Scriptures proclaiming his Deity because you assume, apparently, that Jesus was nothing more than a man, a created being of some sort.

As Paul said Jesus did not view equality with his father as something to grasped at but took the (morphe) form of a servant, a human servant, a fully human servant, whose Father was greater than he was.(Phil. 2:6, John 14:28)

You left out the first part of the Phillipians verse:

⁶ who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ⁷ but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,^[b] being born in the likeness of men. ⁸ And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. ⁹ Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, ¹⁰ so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, ¹¹ and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus was both "in the form of God" and "took the form of a servant".
Jesus "took the form of a servant", and he was a servant (Isa. 42:1).
Jesus was "in the form of God" (Phil. 2:6) and he was God. (John 1:1, et al)

³⁹ You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, ⁴⁰ yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Cordially,

[count-your-change]

I can only say that this is where the false doctrine of the trinity leads if pursued...to conclusions such as this:

“The Son is Jehovah God. The Holy Spirit is Jevoah God.”

[count-your-change]

And it seems to me to be a good place to shake the dust off my feet.
Done and done.

[boatbums]

I can only say that this is where the false doctrine of the the trinity leads if pursued...to conclusions such as this: “The Son is Jehovah God. The Holy Spirit is Jevoah God.”

Except it is not a false doctrine. The conclusion you cite IS the truth about the Trinity: The Father is Jehovah God, the Son is Jehovah God and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God. The three are ONE God whose personal name is Jehovah consisting of the three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I'm glad we can at least end the discussion with this clear acknowledgment.

[count-your-change]

To repeat: And it seems to me to be a good place to shake the dust off my feet.
Done and done.

[DouglasKC]

This has been discussed many times by myself and others on FreeRepublic...please feel free to read the entire thread....

[narses]

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.

In English:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen

[MHGinTN]

This is the one I was telling you about on the phone ...

[narses]

From the Catholic EWTN list of Cults:

“Worldwide Church of God - Leader: Hurbert W. Armstrong

Jesus is a part of the godhead (God is a family) and men can become like Jesus and part of the God family - Sons of God.

They do not believe in a closed godhead (TRINITY). The Holy Spirit is not considered a person, but the Father and the Son work through it.

Derivate cult - International Church of God. Leader: Son of Herbert, George, was disowned by his father and started this group that believes the same, but claims that the Worldwide Church lost its authority when Herbert divorced his wife.)”

https://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/CULTCAT.TXT

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.

In English:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen

[Tennessee Nana]

what are you doing up so late ???

:)

[DouglasKC]

lol...you’re a fast reader!

[narses]

Not my first time on this thread, by a long shot. You remain badly in error.

[DouglasKC]

Not my first time on this thread, by a long shot. You remain badly in error.

Thanks for helping to keep it alive....it's important information as is all bible truth...

[narses]

“it’s important information...”

Not. It is a pathetic attempt at proselytizing a minor cult. And it is regularly seen as a joke.

[DouglasKC]

Not. It is a pathetic attempt at proselytizing a minor cult. And it is regularly seen as a joke.

Thanks again!

[MHGinTN]

I’m overwhelmed with stuff to do for the coming visitors ... FR is a break in the action, or something to do while waiting for things to get dry so I can fold them up or make the beds. Cooking starts this afternoon. Lots to do so my Granddaughter has a pleasant Christmas at Papa’s. She isn’t going to get the snow she requested though.

[Tennessee Nana]

Shiny spent Friday night and last night with me...

She loves my new computer and read some FR and wanted to join as a member :)

at 11 shes already smarter than most liberals so she would fit right in here...

she came to church with me this morning..

I took the turkey out of the freezer this afternoon...

for Christmas I usually repeat my Thanksgiving menu but without the ham..

and I add more green stuff...

I love cooking Christmas dinner..

Merry Christmas FRee Republic !!!

:)

[Tennessee Nana]

BTW it was 66 at 1am this morning...

and then it rained...

no snow here either...