Posted on 04/05/2013 4:55:55 AM PDT by Colofornian
The grand council of atheist Mormon bishops have met and codified the Creed of Practical Mormon Atheism, a list of things that both atheists and Mormons can largely affirm together:
On a serious note, this is why I ask Mormons questions like,
The religion of Mormonism is hallowing out. The numbers increase on the exterior (although even that is in jeopardy), but on the interior there is a mass-apostasy going on, intellectually and mentally speaking. People are leaving the LDS Church without leaving the LDS Church.
Without asking probing questions, I can’t assume any Mormon I talk to even believes in the existence of God or the resurrection of Jesus. Even the Mormons that aren’t closet-atheists are largely latent atheists (or agnostics) without knowing it. Since evangelism, I take it, is partly to engage the conscience and the depth of one’s heart, I want to reach them where they are really at, even if they don’t quite understand what is going on.
Are you reading this blog to better understand how to evangelize your LDS neighbors? Are you feeling inadequate because you don’t know much about Mormonism? How about this for a start: Step through ten reasons to believe in the resurrection of Jesus, ten reasons to trust the Bible, and even ten reasons to believe in the existence of God. Even if a Mormon doesn’t think they “need” to hear it.
This graphic includes two quotes: The first is from Lds "apostle" Boyd Packer, whose picture is in the original blog next to this quote. The second is from Lds dissenter John Dehlin, whose picture is also in the original blog next to the second quote.
The original context for these quotes is that Packer at one point was trying to head off Lds historians from staying away from Lds history that wasn't "faith-promoting." Dehlin's quote is much more recent; Dehlin is trying to help Mormons who realize the untruthfulness of Mormonism to stay Mormon, anyway.
Hence, Shafovaloff is taking a tongue-and-cheek approach to many of his initial list of bullet points. For example, some Dehlinesque type of comments ultimately boil down to:
You can see some of these Dehlin type comments at any number of his posted PowerPoint presentations:
* 2013: 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church
* 2009: How to Stay in the Lds Church After a Major Trial of Faith (Oct. 12, 2009)
* 2008: Why People Leave the LDS Church, and what family/friends/community can do about it
From the blog:
So...exactly what is Shafovaloff's point here?
Well, he is referencing the Lds beliefs that necessitate arising from Joseph Smith's "revelation" found in Lds "scripture" -- Doctrine & Covenants 93.
From a previous Lds "prophet": - "Thus the Lord has given us the information regarding his creations, and how he has made many earths, for there never was a beginning, never was a time when man did not exist somewhere in the universe, and when the time came for this earth to be peopled the Lord, our God, transplanted upon it from some other earth, the life which is found here." Improvement Era, Vol 23:389-393; Joseph Fielding Smith; "The Origin and Destiny of Man"; 1919
This thinking, too, is based upon Lds "scripture" Doctrine and Covenants 93:29,33...which says that spirits and intelligences are as eternal as God is: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal... (LDS "scripture" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33)
Per the Mormon narrative, you started off as "goo" somewhere...a "spirit" (D&C 93:29,33)...You are just as "eternal" (as in eternal past) as God & Jesus...you haven't "lived" any less than them (past-wise)
Then you were spirit-born to a man who became God & one of his goddess wives...near "Kolob"...wherever that is...
Oh, and Lucifer -- Satan -- was your "elder spirit bro"
Then you were sent here to inhabit a body...
If you don't become a temple Mormon so you can eternally progress to become a future god like Mitt Romney (run your world; create your own spirit kids; receive worship & prayer & glory from them as a "god")...
Then you can be Necro-baptized by proxy in a spirit world where you & everybody goes (even the best Mormons go there, too, for a while)
And Lds "prophet" Woodruff said the signers of the Declaration of Independence came to him (their spirits) @ the St. George, Utah temple in the 1870s and begged him to necro-baptize them all!
And if the above wasn't enough, if you look under the "Spirit" entry in LDS church-published Bible Dictionary, 1979 (p. 776) -- in back of Holy Bible, you'll find this entry:
"That is, ALL forms of living things--man, beast and vegetation--existed as individual spirits, before any form of life existed upon the earth. The spirit is in the likeness of the physical body, as demonstrated in Gen. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15-16; D&C 77:2; 129; Moses 3:4-7. Furthermore, all spirit is matter,but is more refined and pure than mortal element (D&C 131:7)."
So. If you take the infinite regression teaching of the Mormon church -- infinitely regressing, we ALL have supposedly "existed" in some form -- [again, see @ Doctrine & Covenant 93:29,33 above...this teaches WE are as eternal (past) as God/Jesus, etc. -- & that spirits & intelligences & elements ALWAYS existed!!!
...and couple it with this above eternal regression teaching...that vegetation & beasts were co-existent alongside us as fellow "spirits" once upon a time...and that we all have ALWAYS existed...
Sometimes esoteric macabre teachings that you think are so FAR out there...are actually mainstream Mormonism!
oxymormon
I didn’t think it possible, but you have reached a new low.
Starting a thread based on comments from a blog site? LOL
The religious tolerance that I hear from some freepers is mind boggling.
Christians weren’t the ones who started this fight by stumbling out of the woods and claiming they had seen God, Jesus and angels and proclaimed all churches were wrong and he was right and if you didn’t believe his new book then he would stand in the doorway to Heaven and keep the non Mormons out.
Smith threw down the gauntlet, Christians picked it up, and the Mormons have been crying “FOUL” ever since because the always get their butts whipped ever time their own words are used against them.
And the point of continuing the fight is? I thought Christains were supposed to turn the other cheek.
So these atheists are encouraging others to be hypocrites?
While I believe the Mormon doctrine to be false, they do believe in a God. They are not atheists.
****I thought Christians were supposed to turn the other cheek.****
Only when someone slaps you up the side of the head.
In matters of doctrine the CHRISTIAN is expected to DEFEND THE FAITH, not with a physical confrontation but with solid refutation of false doctrine.
2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
100,000 mormon missionaries going around the world proclaiming to Christians that their faith is bogus and the only way to salvation is through arcane rituals in a mormon temple. THAT is the point.
(a) You make this sound like it’s not been done — either by me or anybody else on FR;
(b) Bloggers are simply the new columnists from the ancient dinosaur era
(c) I guess your anti-blog mentality shows which era was your “alma mater”
And the point of continuing the fight is? I thought Christains were supposed to turn the other cheek. [okieshooter, post #7]
(I guess Jesus' half-bro, Jude, never got Okieshooter's "memo": I felt compelled to write and urge you to U>CONTEND for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. Jude 3) ... Nor the Holy Spirit who inspired this Scripture, eh Okieshooter?
In the interest of full disclosure am not either a Mormon, a Christian or a Atheist, although that might depend on you definition of atheist. But that is a whole different issue.
I strongly believe in the right to believe what you want, but one of the issues I have with revealed religions is they seem to emphasize our differences rather than how we are alike. If you want to fight over the differences in you beliefs, have at it.
(Yeah, isn't that just "terrible" that Christians don't point out what they have "in common" with Satanism, with Wicca witchcraft, with Scientology, etc.)
But, of course, I guess all that -- all which Satanists, witches, Scientologists from "another planet" believe -- comes under your open-ended umbrella of "believing [whatever] you want," which, btw, doesn't stop at "religions."
If you want to "preach it" to Planned Parenthood to "believe what they want" concerning the lack of humanity of the pre-born, we certainly don't have to ignore free-speech rights, but we don't have to endorse their "right" to practice child-killing, either.
And if you're going to "preach it" to Mauritanian slave-holders amidst a country where 10-20% are still slaves to "believe what they want" re: slave-holding, I'm not going to endorse that, either...even if it's technically "legal" in that country to embrace slavery...
And if you're going to "preach it" to neo-Nazis to "believe what they want "re: Jews, I'm not going to endorse that as well.
And if you're going to "preach it" to Democrats that they can "believe what they want"...
...then may I suggest you take all this pathetic liberal crap and "amen it" elsewhere?
It's actually all one cloth.
The most liberal views tend to be held most commonly by atheists.
Certainly extend a survey question now, + go back one, two generations, and ask them: "Do you consider an atheist to be a cultural 'liberal?'"
I'll betcha the overwhelming answers would be "yes."
Simply put: A "liberal" attempts to "liberate" people from accountability to God...
An atheist can claim all kinds of culturally infused conservativism; but when they opt to "liberate" people from God, they are at heart among that culture's "most liberal" citizens.
Only with other Christians. We are to defend and contend for the faith. Otherwise what would be the point. Do you not respond when a Muslim slanders the faith?
Christians are to call out false doctrine when they see it. Jesus is the way to ever lasting life, not Joseph Smith and his fancy pants.
I quailfy my believe in freedom to believe with as long as it doesn’t harm others. Some of the examples you cited do, ie Planed Parenthood.
I don’t recall Mormon’s harming anyone since Mountain Meadows and that was about 150 years ago. Of course Christians haven’t had a stellar record in that regard over their history, but we are all human and make mistakes.
I try not to “preach” my beliefs but sometimes just make remarks from observations in passing. I know that people have strong feelings about their spiritual beliefs and are not very likely to change them unless they see something from within themselves.
The great presumption is that all (or most) religious espousals "don't harm" others -- as if people have the sovereign omniscience to rule out the "spiritual" or spiritual harm to the soul.
And, of course, a "convenient" worldview of no hell and no ultimate accountability to God is tidy with an assumption of no long-term (as in eternal) damage of what is espoused on a world-wide basis.
But; are they joining up with TRUE Mormons?
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
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