Posted on 03/28/2013 5:58:16 AM PDT by markomalley
Pope Francis has said in his Chrism Mass homily that self-help courses can turn Catholics into “Pelagians” who “minimise the power of grace”.
The Pope said at a Mass in St Peter’s Basilica attended by about 1,600 priests that “it is not in soul-searching or constant introspection that we encounter the Lord”.
He said: “Self-help courses can be useful in life, but to live by going from one course to another, from one method to another, leads us to become Pelagians and to minimise the power of grace, which comes alive and flourishes to the extent that we, in faith, go out and give ourselves and the Gospel to others.” The Pelagian heresy, popular in the fifth century, holds that people are capable of choosing good without the grace of God.
In his homily, Pope Francis urged priests to “go out” and to live “in the midst of their flock”. He said that, like the “anointed ones”, Isaiah, David and Christ, priests are anounted so that they, in turn, can anount the faithful.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicherald.co.uk ...
You are entitled to your opinion, but the veneration of Mary has everything to go with God’s most gracious gift, which is Jesus the son of God, born of a Virgin. She was the means by which God entered history.
Augustine stated the definition of a Pelagian and a Semi-Pelagian very well in his Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints. :
But these brethren of ours, about whom and on whose behalf we are now discoursing, say, perhaps, that the Pelagians are refuted by this apostolical testimony in which it is said that we are chosen in Christ and predestinated before the foundation of the world, in order that we should be holy and immaculate in His sight in love. For they think that "having received God's commands we are of ourselves by the choice of our free will made holy and immaculate in His sight in love; and since God foresaw that this would be the case," they say, "He therefore chose and predestinated us in Christ before the foundation of the world." Although the apostle says that it was not because He foreknew that we should be such, but in order that we might be such by the same election of His grace, by which He showed us favour in His beloved Son. When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. "But we say," say they, "that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work." But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, "We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things." [Eph. 1.11.] He, therefore, work-eth the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" [Rom. 11.29.] and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth" [Rom. 9.12.] (although He might have said, "of Him that believeth"); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." [John 15.16.] For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. But all the many things which we have said concerning this matter need not be repeated.
As Dutchboy rightfully points out, the Church is steeped in Semi-Pelagianism (as well as most of Protestantism).
WE WERE ELECTED AND PREDESTINATED, NOT BECAUSE WE WERE GOING TO BE HOLY, BUT IN ORDER THAT WE MIGHT BE SO.-AUGUSTINE
“As Dutchboy rightfully points out, the Church is steeped in Semi-Pelagianism (as well as most of Protestantism).”
I suspect that is the reason why the church in America is so utterly ineffectual.
It’s a fairly simple concept that Catholics seem to have no trouble grasping.
Naw, it's not all that simple...Because we hear what you say and then we see what you do...And they are not the same...
And again, this
"A mysterious 'presence' of the transcendent Prototype seems as it were to be transferred to the sacred image...The devout contemplation of such an image thus appears as a real and concrete path of PURIFICATION of the soul of the believer...because the image itself, blessed by the priest...can in a certain sense, by analogy with the sacraments, ACTUALLY be a channel of divine grace." JPII.
This is not simple reflection as you would have us believe...We see what you do...
Jesus was not born as a human for the role of a God...He was as you say a prophet, a preacher, a priest and a human...Elizabeth did NOT say the mother of God...She said the mother of my Lord...
Mary was not, is not and never will be the mother of God...
Anyone who knows the bible already knows that Jesus was God and man...No one needs to invent a word to add to it to let us know that Jesus was God and man...Especially while adding the word gives a false notion that Mary was God's mother...
We already know that Mary was Jesus' mother and we already know that Jesus is God...And yet we know that Mary was not the mother of God...God was not created in Mary's womb...The 2nd part of the Trinity was not created in Mary's womb...He already WAS...
Unless you are a parishioner at St. Paschal Baylon in Thousand Oaks, CA, or Our Lady of Malibu, you don’t “see” what I do.
Both Catholics and Protestants agree that our fellowship with God is in the one same Holy Spirit.
Each believer has been anointed with spiritual gifts, but not all believers have the same spiritual gifts.
All believers are priests before God the Father through faith in Christ and anointed by God the Holy Spirit.
It is true that if a believer only seeks sanctification through “self-help” courses, while in fellowship with God through faith in Christ, being sanctified by God the Holy Spirit in the human spirit of the believer, that believer will continue to grow in faith as a work of God. Learning independent of the work of God the Holy Spirit in us is simply academics and may lead to Pelagianism.
Still there is nothing wrong in a believer continually learning through faith in Christ as we are commanded to never cease praying.
It also is true that if one only learns, but never works his spiritual gifts through faith in Christ, then without works he is dead or simply separated from fully exercising what God has provided.
I am cautious in reading the article how some worldly priests might confuse the Pope’s direction as promoting a worldly religion, mistaking ritualism and mysticism with the actual spiritual walk of a believer using his spiritual gifts. It also tends to promote the false notion that other believers are not priests before God in this Church Age and must seek other men other than themselves through faith in Christ to walk in fellowship with Him and to fulfill His Plan for each of us. In this sense, should a priest confuse his role as a worldly power broker, instead of exercising the spiritual gift given him by God, not by any man, then he will slip out of fellowship, scarring his soul, at living a religious ritual in arrogance, instead of through faith in Christ.
Okay, that is one of the most stunted views of God's activity that I have come across. If this is the party line, no wonder the Roman cult is disheveled. "God entered history" through Mary? You are not serious.
God created the heavens and earth by the word of His power, from an act of His will. There was no universe before He acted and He is acting at all moments to sustain the universe. Should He take His mind off this whole enterprise, it would not grind to a halt...it would not exist. To say He entered history through Mary makes Him a bit player in a cheap school play...and this is precisely the way the RCC treats Him. The Roman organization is pre-eminent; God enters through a woman? Please.
Mary is just a human pawn in His hands the way Isaiah, or Moses was. She was given a role and nothing more. She was favored to be the bearer of Jesus entering physically when it came time to provide the Lamb of God, but He had "entered" a billion times before in other forms. He was likely the angel who wrestled with Jacob. He was likely the form which Moses saw walk in front of him. He was likely the One speaking with Adam (Let US make man in our image). After all, no man has seen the Father and lived, right?
The idolatry of the RCC is destructive and wrongheaded, but it is just another expression of the errors of Rome. This thread originally began with the problem of Semi-Pelagianism, a clear error widely held by the RCC today, irrespective of what they claim is official doctrine. Much of so-called Protestantism suffers from it, also. Read Iscool's & HarleyD's posts. They nail it.
“Mary was a pawn.” Well that is the most stunted description of human being that I have ever seen, but it fits Calvin’s lower opinion of human nature. It is so low it reminds me of the Mesopotamian of man as the slave of the gods. When the Lord emptied himself of his divinity and took the form of a slave, he did not diminish Mary but exaulted her. To her as to the Father he gave the obedience owed her. Irenaeus—writing long before Constabntine—described her as the New Eve, and I hope you do not disregard Scripture by forgetting that looked upon her as a daughter. Eve disobeyed and with her humanity “fell” but not into the same pit as Lucifer but to a place where Jesus might descend to claim them to himself. And First of all, the maid of Galilee.
I agree.
And that statement is a rather weird statement to make. I would suspect that RobbyS would agree that God doesn't "enter" history. He is the Alpha and Omaga...the first and the last. He is history (to paraphrase Indiana Jones) as well as our future.
The veneration of Mary is simply another excuse for worshipping someone other than God. Bowing in front of statues, lighting candles to images, praying to other things than God, etc. are forbidden time and again by the scriptures. The veneration of Mary is not any difference than veneration of Baal.
Indeed, when God became man, taking the form of a slave, he did indeed enter history. History is the tale of mankind, and by becoming man, he —Jesus—became part of history. His birth was a historical event, everything he did as babe, boy, and man were events in history, and he changed it forever. Two persons are named in the Apostle’s creed,Mary and Pontius Pilate. Each was an instrument of our deliverance: Mary, because of her faith, her humillty and her obedience ; Pilate, because of his cowardice.
Gee, you caught me on that "lower opinion of human nature." Perhaps I should have kept it where Paul's & David's opinion landed...
"There is none righteous, not even one (not even Mary);
There is none who understands (not even Mary)
There is none who seeks for God (not even Mary);
All have turned aside, together they have become useless (even Mary)
There is none who does good (not even Mary)
There is NOT EVEN ONE (not even Dutchboy88)."
Ouch...Rom 3
There is no justification for venerating any human being. Every one of the elect is just as much a "saint" as any other, since true holiness is not a product of human effort, but a gift from God.
"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing knowledge of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I amay gain Christ, and may be found in Him, NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN DERIVED FROM THE LAW (obedience), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which COMES FROM GOD on the basis of faith." Phil 3
Preach it, bro.
>> The veneration of Mary is not any difference than veneration of Baal.
Showing respect for Mary, the mother of Christ, is no different than showing respect for the cult god of fertility?
And we're suppose to believe this is "showing respect". I'm sure this was the same rational the Israelites duped themselves into thinking that was used during Ahab's time when Baal worship was the king's choice.
Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
There’s “self help,” and then there’s self help ;-)
>> You even invent doctrine that has no evidence in scripture supporting her.
>> You, you, you...
I’ve done all these things?
>> And we’re suppose to believe this is “showing respect”.
I’m not reading the worshiper’s mind regarding the relationship between the Old and New Testaments.
Exodus 20:2-5 is about serving other gods. Mary, who was not a god, but eventually the mother of Christ, was not the problem being addressed.
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
What is your old screen name?
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