Do we love those inclined to homosexuality enough to stop same-sex ‘marriage’?

In this battle over same-sex ‘marriage’ it often sounds like those pushing the dismantling of traditional marriage have the upper hand in terms of love. ‘You are opposed to love!’; ‘How does the love between me and my partner affect you in your marriage?’; ‘Why can’t I be allowed to love whomever I choose?’

These are the tough arguments from ‘love’ facing those who are fighting to protect marriage from radical redefinition.

In truth, however, love is the principle reason to fight same-sex ‘marriage.’

You see, law is a teacher and enshrining same-sex ‘marriage’ in law would lead many people to believe that homosexual sexual relations are equal to those of heterosexual married couples. The difficulty, of course, is that while sexual acts between heterosexual married couples can be totally healthy and positive, the same can never be said of sexual acts between persons of the same sex, whether they happen within a relationship given the name “marriage” or not.

Our bodies were not designed for that behavior, and our anatomy itself gives that testimony. The negative mental and physical health consequences that flow from homosexual sex are many and the medical evidence pointing to them is readily available on LifeSiteNews.

[[Every individual who comes to Christ is a “Miracle” of the new birth Cottshop]

Wow- Is that you’re exampel of a supernatural miracle which violates nature? That is what you are goign to use to claim healers today are still able to do supernatural physical healings which violate nature?

I’m curious- Why is everyoen avoiding providing examples of Supernatrural PHYSICAL HEALINGS which violate nature? Several peopel have intimated and infact claimed that supernatural miracles still occure today (and we’re talking about physical healings upon command CAWW- not regeneration of spirits) but noone has produiced evidence- not even you- once again you are missing hte point- the claim is that so called healers are still endowed with holy Spirit to produce the same supernatural physical miracles today that the apostles were performing through God in biblical times- Either you are playing games with words CAWW - or you really did miss what the cruix of the discussion was about- which is it? If you are making hte claim that healers today are still able to do what the apostles and Christ and prophets did in regards to restorign physical life, restoring limbs, walking on water etc- then let’s have soem examples- I’m really not itnerested in palyign word games with you- My position is clear- and simpel enough to understand- please stick to the discussion point and refrain from itnroducing soemthign beyond what the discussion was about- We are talkign about hwether so called healers of today are able to perform through God the same type suipernatural physical healings/ restorations of lost parts, walkign on water etc that Christ and apostles and prophets did- soem seem to think healers are stil lable to- yet provide no evidence- Do you have evidence? OR are you just here to take us down rabbit trails unconnected with hte discussion?

.......”The whole premise of this conversation has to do with whether there has been discontinuity of the supernatural gifts that hte apostles had or not- If there has not, then surely we would be seeing TRUE SUPERNATURAL Miracles that defy natural laws being performed still today”.....

Ok, catching up with this thread has taken a bit of time...but I think I'm understanding you rightly in that Christ’s miracles were for a purpose and time...and I agree with that.

However, I do think that Miracles can occur today, but I am most assuredly critical of the ‘name it claim it healers’ and their services we see today, which creates allot of unnecessary emotional hype...especially if they do so in their presentation.

There are people who have been healed today...didn't ask for it... and keep it to themselves and God pretty much. Jesus knew mens hearts for what they are and He knows them still today.

When He heals, why broadcast it as if it's showtime in Las Vegas?.... And what are you going to say to the throngs who walk away not healed?....we know how that goes... they suffer terribly emotionally and psychologically trying to work up “enough faith” to get their healing...as if it's their fault....or God doesn't care enough for them. It's a tragedy that should not be, and God does not work in that manner IMO.

But can He heal, certainly, or He cannot be God...but
There is something to also say about those in third world countries, so often caught up in spiritualism of the dark side. Many third world people are highly emotional to begin with, unlike the constraints our society requires for the most part. So they might possibly have a very emotional and striking conversion and healing might come with it.

However, just as the flamboyant so called healers in our country, it did not take long for those “power seekers” in those countries to “get the spirit” to perform on their stages...and it has taken off there as well. In fact in Haiti and some of the countries they actually combine Christianity with their Voo-doo mumbo jumbo...and it's perfectly acceptable and in fact encouraged.

I guess my point is...Yes, God heals, but I do not see His working in the way so many of these charlatan's present themselves, nor the healings they profess occur....

.....we do have after all, an enemy who counterfeits everything of Christ he can possibly do.

I have seen a little girls crossed eyes uncrossed by a man laying a hand on her, when he removed his hand her eyes were perfect. That is something that just doesn't happen or explained away.

My friend was going to have part of her leg amputated because the bone was disintegrating. When they cut her open the doc couldn't find the area, xrays were retaken, the bone was perfect. That is something that just doesn't happen or explained away.

In 1987, I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. I told them I was healed and stopped treatment, the doctor said I would be dead in six months.

My sisterIL laid hands on a woman with pneumonia, when she removed her hand the woman was healed completely. That just doesn't happen or explained away. To say there are no supernatural miracles today, limits God.

Well since CottShop did not see these, and could likely dismiss it as not outside the possibility of natural causes, and you never saw anyone walk in water, and you did not see the bone regenerated, then perhaps you were be deceived or lying. But for those of us who believe that God has not given Himself a sabbatical rest from doing miracles, such things done in Christ are real, thanks be to God.

[[However, I do think that Miracles can occur today,]]

I beleive they can too- I do beleive However God has chosen not to for His own purposes and I beleive this is exactly why Christ said it will be mush harder for man to beleive today because we won’t have the same supernatural miracles that the peopel of the bible got to witness first hand and know betyond a shadow of a doubt that ONLY a sueprnatural act coudl have caused what they just witnessed-

[[When He heals, why broadcast it as if it’s showtime in Las Vegas?.... ]]

That’s an excellent point- Jesus told those He healed to tell noone (The lepers He told to go to temple to have htem declared free of the disease as per Jewish rules- but He did tell them to tell noone else)

[[And what are you going to say to the throngs who walk away not healed?....we know how that goes... they suffer terribly emotionally and psychologically trying to work up “enough faith” to get their healing...]]

That’s precisely why I brought up the fact that hte apostles healed EVERYONE that was brought to them- they didn’t call names out of a crowd and only ‘heal’ certain folks- they healed EVERYONE no matter whether the healing that was needed was of a supernatural kind (Raising dead)- Nothign was too great for them to handle- but apparently soem htigns are too great for today’s healers to handle which is why we don’t see exampels of supernatural miracles which violate natural laws-

[[I guess my point is...Yes, God heals, but I do not see His working in the way so many of these charlatan’s present themselves, nor the healings they profess occur....]]

That’;s been my point all along really- I truly beleive God does still heal and heals wodnerfully and spectacularly in some peopel’s lives- but that for now, He has chosen for His own purposes to heal only within the cofnines of natural law and not to step poutside to produce sueprnatural miracles which violate thsoe natural laws until the end times when these thigns will once again happen- (And just for the record- the healings done in the new testament where the elders are to pray over the sick, and to annoint htem with oil- it was NEVER the ‘faith of the sick person’ that healed that person- but it WAS the faith of the elders- thsi was made clear in God’s word- possibly even to try to prevent just what toyu describbed, placign such a heavy emotional burden on the sick person IF they were not healed so that they woudl not think “Great- not only am I now stil la sick person- but now apapprently I’m also a wretched person of no faith Because My illness is still here” (and I also beleive the elders are to pray Saying ‘as Thou Will” to God if I’m not mistaken- so just because they pray over the sick it doesn’t mean that sick person will be healed-

[[Apparently, regeneration of bone, changing muscles, healing people of pneumonia and caner are not supernatural enough]]

Wow- I am sayign they are not sueprnatural at all- If God heals using natural means- then hte healing is via natural means- not supernatural means- it violated no natural laws- The fact of the matter is that they apostles and Christ and prophets did SUPERNATURAL miracles all the time- There is nothign SUPERNATURAL about bone regeneration- nothign SUPERNATURAL abotu pneumonia clearing up- pneumonias clear up all the time- and there’s nothign SUPERNATURAL abotu cancer goign into remission- many many cancer patients have had their cancers go into remission without healerrs prayign over them- Crossed eyes resolve spontanuiously all the time-

[[are not supernatural enough.]]

Can you HONESTLY compare thsoe thigns which CAN occure naturally with soemthing like restorign a missing limb with nothign but a command? The claim was that God has not stopped doing supernaturnatural miracles and it weas implied that healers are still conduits of these supernatural miracles- I’ve asked repetedly for exampels of TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW- All I really got was soemthign akin to “Well, them iracles done today are of a lesser strength” and got only exampels of all things that ‘could be’ natural- or ‘could be’ God workign htrough natural means to facilitate a healing- The TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW Left no doubt in anyone’s minds as to whether they were supernatural or not- They had to be TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW because they did precisely that- they violated nature- None of the thigns I’ve seen presented as evidence are ‘violations of nature’- and everyone of them ‘coudl happen naturally, and infact HAVE happened naturally in many cases throughout hte world- Whichj leaves one to wonder whether it was God or whether God just allowed it to happen naturally- When Christ and apostles and prohpets did the TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW- there was NO question in anyone’s minds- the proof was right before their eyes that soemthign SUPERNATURAL which VIOLATED NATURAL LAW had just taken place

You told me in the pm tta all I have to do is beleive that my missing part will be regenerated and it wil happen- I ask you why should I beleive that when NOONE has ever had missing parts regenerated before? (After the age of TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW ended) If God is still owkring TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW through faith healers today- why were we NOT seeign evidnece of regeneration of missing body parts? Surely peopel in my same health condition somewhere in the world woudl have had enough faith to have the part regeenrated? No? Yet there has been not one single case- If healers are still doing TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW but htese TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW are of a ‘lesser strength’ then wherre is the evidence that the healings violate natural law?

[[I pity you,]]

That’s aweful kind of you

[[that you are unwilling apparently to see what is there.]]

Kinda hard to see something that isn’t there- I’ll ask you again- Where are the supernatural cases of restoration ofl ost limbs, digits, organs? Where are the cases of healers walkign on water? Turnign water into wine? Multiplying loaves of bread and fishes? All you’ve shown me are cases where God heals through NATURAL means- I keep askign you forSUPERNATURAL Exampels, but you refuse to provide them - but do please feel free to ‘pity me’ while REFUSING to present cases where God VIOLATES natural law and works SUPERNATURAL miracles- Apparnelty that must be how charismaticism works? Causing folsk to ‘feel ashamed’ for not ‘beleiving hard enough’ DESPITE lack of evidence for TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW? Thansk but no thanks- DFon’t need that kind of self sanctimonious religion-

[[So be free to be who you]]

Well thank You-

[[and I will am free to celebrate the living God who heals.]]

Swell- and do let me know whenever you run across a case where God restores a digit, limb, organ through a healer- Apparnetly you are NOT going to present any such cases here as repeatedly asked for-

[[Eyes do not uncross at the touch of a hand]]

Were you there? did you witness it? And yes eyes DO spontaniously uncross- it’s a medical fact-

Bone can and does regenetraTE

Pneumonias do clear up

One last time- God may be healign htese peopel BUT He is doign so in a way that is entirely possible NATURALLY- there is NOTHING supernatural about what is done-

[[I have said there are people who see these things you are demanding, I have given examples of what I have seen.]]

No you haven’t- I’ve not seen oen exampel of the thigns I was asking for- not one-

[[Just because you have not seen something in no way means they have not happened.]]

Never said that was the case- I’ve said time and itme again I’ll happily cede that sueoprnatural miracles are still happenign WHEN you shwo that htey are- All you’ve presented are cases which do NOT fit the requirement of SUPERNATURAL- they do howerver fit the cfriteria for natural healing

[[I find it interesting that you are demanding God prove to you something that is already evident.]]

I find it morei nterestign that you refuse to provide any such evidence- and inssit that God healing purely withint the natural boundaries is ‘good enough’ to be sueprnatural-

[[And yes, I pity you for that “not seeing what is there”.]]

Yes yes, we’ve established that you feel spiritually superior- that’s plenty evident- Now how abotu providing evidence of SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW? No? ok- pity away!

Matthew 4:23,24 - Jesus healed all manner of diseases.

Matthew 14:34-36 - All were healed.

Acts 5:12,15,16 - They were healed every one.

Again- Where are the amputees receivign mising limbs? Where are the peopel missing organs receivign new disease free organs instantaniously? Where are the healers CURING leprosy instantaniously? Why is htere still leprosy todaY? Should healers have wiped out leprosy by now? Or are they just content ‘healing’ issues that can’t be verified as TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW and hwich peopel can look upon and KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that hwat htye just wintessed was a TRUE violation of natural law?

Healers today ‘require’ the person beign healed to ‘beleive’ and if they aren’t healed- well then the healer has their out- either ‘God didn’t want to heal them, or the person didn’t beleive enough’ Yet we see that Christ and the descipels healed EVERYONE that was broguth to them and even those hwo were unbeleivers

* Dead people have no faith - Luke 7:11-17; John 11:38-44.

* Elymas received a miracle because he lacked faith - Acts 13:6-12.

* Peter was rescued though he lacked faith - Matthew 14:25-33.

* Jesus calmed a storm though the disciples lacked faith - Mark 4:35-41.

* Elijah called fire from heaven when the people lacked faith - 1 Kings 18:20-40.

“People did not need faith to receive a miracle, but sometimes miracles were done as a reward for faith. In these cases, the man of God knew miraculously that the faith existed (Acts 14:8-10; Mark 6:1-6). In any case, they never attempted a miracle, failed, and blamed it on the people’s lack of faith.”

http://www.gospelway.com/god/miracles_nature.php

“Finally it was over ... I spent a few minutes watching the wheelchair patients leave. All the desperately ill patients who had been in wheelchairs were still in wheelchairs ... I stood in the corridor watching the hopeless cases leave, seeing the tears of the parents as they pushed their crippled children to the elevators - Nolen, p. 67.
“

I’ll ask again- Either God is not doing TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW, or as you’ve indicated (maybe it ws Daniel) that God is still doing TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW, but just to a lesser extent- thus indicating God’s power is either less than what it used to be, OR that God has chosen to limit Himself to only now healing within the confines of natural possibilties-

You can pity me all you like- but your pity is worth nothign if you keep refusing to address the above question- why are peopel beign turned away today when they present cases which REQUIRE TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW? Why are healers ONLY “healing” carefully screened folks and never actually provide medical records to corroborate that a TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURAL LAW has taken place?

“E. Summary: True Miracles Are Impossible by Natural Law”

http://www.gospelway.com/god/miracles_nature.php

“Every true miracle possessed all four of the above characteristics. This demonstrated to the observers that the event was impossible by natural law, but had to be God’s intervention.”

“The Bible distinguishes miracles from events that happen in answer to prayer according to natural law.

We have already described true miracles and also false miracles. But there is a third category of event in which God answers prayer, but does so by working through natural law.”

[[Bone does not just regenerate, a person does not have honey combed bones one day and the next perfect.]]

I asked for evidnece- NOT for anectdotal accoutns of someoen who told soemone somethign soemwhere- Do you have records shwoign that hte bones was honeycombed one day and perfect the next? Or is everyoen left to wonder whether the person was beign hoenst or not as is so common with msot ‘miracles’ which can’t be medically verified? Please psot hte before and after exrays if they exist- but again- the TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which instantionously VIOPLATED NATURAL LAW that hte apostles and Christ and prophets did needed no such proof because it was blatantly obvious to all that what htey had just wintessed was a TRUE VIOLATION OF NATURAL LAW- they didn’t have to just take soemone’s word for it (thankfuly, because MOST peopel exxaggerate)

If you’ve got hte before and after exrays- I’ll gladly cede that a supernatural miracle took place- IF you’re demandign I simpyl take your word that soemthign SUPERNATURAL took place, well I’ll stick to the actual supernatural miracles of the bible which didn’t need to rely on guesswork or hearsay and hwich truly did bviolate natural laws- and I’ll also conclude that you haven’t got any evidence that shows that SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VOLATER NATURAL LAW are stil l takign place today because a a lack of actual evidence for healings that fall outside of natural possibilties- We;ve goen of for quite a number of posts now, and still you haven’t provided any evidence and apparently are angry (or filled with pity) for me because I don’t accept natural healing possiibilties as TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES which VIOLATE NATURE as they uised to do i nthe bible and which coudl NOT be cofnused for havign happened in any other way

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