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To: boatbums

You wrote:

“Do I seriously have to explain why opulent splendor, sumptuous and expensive clothing, food, furnishings and luxuries at every turn is NOT what Jesus expected his servants to live in or for?”

Yes, you have to explain it because you have no idea of what you’re talking about.

1) “opulent splendor” - the pope doesn’t own any of it so it is essentially irrelevant. Most of it is even open to the public and is of great historical value.

2) “sumptuous and expensive clothing” - none of which he owns.

3) “food” - Nope. Most popes in history have eaten relatively simple meals.

4)”furnishings and luxuries” - none of which he owns.

5) “at every turn is NOT what Jesus expected his servants to live in or for?”

When you show me where Jesus condemned the splendor of the Temple I might take you seriously. Jesus not only didn’t condemn it, He paid taxes to support it.


25 posted on 02/28/2013 8:40:51 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
When you show me where Jesus condemned the splendor of the Temple I might take you seriously.

And the operating budget of the Vatican, from where the pope controls the entire world, is half that of the University of Notre Dame.

Sometimes I wonder why we bother.

26 posted on 02/28/2013 8:51:21 PM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: vladimir998
Like I predicted...excuses, rationalization, justification.

Neither Jesus nor Peter nor ANY of the Apostles give the slightest hint that being in the soul winning business comes with the lifestyle fit for a king or billionaire. The servant is worthy of his hire, Paul said, and thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treads the corn. Nothing I read says leaders of the church should live in palaces with the finest furnishings, clothing, jeweled crowns and scepters. So what that he "owns" none of it...as long as he is alive he will never want for a thing in creature comforts the regular man dares not even dream of. Of course he won't "take it with him"...nobody leaves this earthly realm with the wealth he has. That's why Jesus said to store up your treasures in heaven, because where your treasure is, so will also your heart be.

But, hey, he's your guy, your organization. If you are happy to see your hard-earned money going to pay for such lavishness rather than to the poor, like Jesus told the rich man, keep on contributing.

Sure the church has many ministries to the poor all over the world, sure they run orphanages and hospitals and any number of good works. Sure no matter how much money is spent on the poor they will always be with us. But couldn't more be done? Isn't there always more that can be done... mouths to feed, feet to shod, bodies to clothe and medically treat, homes to be built, shelter to be procured, children to rescue, widows to care for, etc.? Can't we ALL do more to win souls to Christ through our means?

I've seen Catholics on this forum criticize television "evangelists" for their lavish lifestyles and constant begging for money with promises of God making them wealthy, too. They make me just as sick!

I have a right to voice my thoughts on this without you and your peeps telling me I have "no idea" of what I'm talking about. Yeah, I do! I don't believe Jesus meant for his church to be like a kingdom on earth complete with all the splendor. The Jewish temple in Jerusalem was the ONLY one in the whole world and it had within it the Holy of Holies where the Bema seat (mercy seat) was located. God, himself, gave instructions for precisely how it was to be built and furnished and it was the place for the people of Israel to meet with His presence from all over the world. And they came yearly to do just that. There weren't lavish temples in every city - just the one. And it was destroyed in 70 A.D. just as Jesus said it would be and it has NEVER been rebuilt. So, please, spare me the comparison. There IS no comparison. Perhaps the Church of Laodicea, spoken of in Revelation 3 can be compared:

To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. (Rev. 3:14-18)

There is a "duty" we all as Christians have to the lost and dying world. It is definitely NOT to store up riches on earth no matter how much "historical value" it has. From Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Revelation 3:17, we read:

    Because thou sayest, I am rich,.... In worldly goods, which occasioned her lukewarmness, as riches often do, and her vanity, pride, and arrogance, afterwards expressed. Laodicea was a very rich city, and so will be this church state, through the accession of kings and princes, and great men of the earth unto it, in the former period: riches seldom do any good to the churches of Christ, they did not in Constantine's time; and it seems that even at the close of the spiritual reign of Christ they will be of bad consequence, since they will usher in the Laodicean church state: or her meaning is, that she was rich in spiritual things; not in grace, but in external gifts, which still remained, upon the very great pouring forth of the Spirit in the last church state; and in good works, on which she too much trusted for salvation, placing her righteousness in them: she is one whom the Jews call , "rich in the law":

    and increased with goods: with outward peace and prosperity, with much natural and divine light and knowledge, with the purity of Gospel ordinances, even beyond the former church state in her own imagination:

    and have need of nothing: contenting herself with these external things: true believers, as considered in Christ, stand in need of nothing indeed, they are complete in him, and have everything in him; but, as considered in themselves, they are daily in need of daily food for their souls, as for their bodies, of fresh light and life, strength and comfort, and of new supplies of grace; wherefore this church shows great ignorance of herself, as well as great pride and arrogance to express herself in this manner:

    and knowest not that thou art wretched; as all men are in a state of nature and unregeneracy; which may be the case of many professors, and they be ignorant of it; as to be under a sentence of wrath, obnoxious to the curses of the law, in danger of hell and destruction, lost and undone, and unable to extricate themselves out of such a state: true believers account themselves wretched, as the Apostle Paul did, on account of indwelling sin, and the plague of their own hearts, which the members of this church, the greater part of them, were ignorant of:

    and miserable; a miserable man is one that is attended with outward afflictions, but this was not the case of this church; and with spiritual poverty, blindness, and nakedness, and this was her case; some persons neither know their misery, nor their need of mercy:

    and poor; not in purse, nor in spirit, nor with respect to outward afflictions, nor as to her church state, but in a spiritual sense; one whom the Jews call a (d) , "poor in the law"; as such may be said to be who have nothing to eat that is fit to eat; nothing to wear but rags, and have no money to buy either; who are in debt, and not able to pay, nor to help themselves on any account; and this may be the case of professors, and yet not known and considered by them: and blind; natural men are blind as to a saving knowledge of God in Christ, as to the way of salvation by Christ, as to the plague of their own hearts, as to the work of the Spirit of God upon the soul, and as to the truths of the Gospel, in the power of them; but here it regards blindness with respect to her church state, and its imperfection: and naked; sin has stripped man of his moral clothing; man's own righteousness will not cover his nakedness; and whoever is destitute of the righteousness of Christ is a naked person.

If the shoe fits, wear it. I just don't believe a Christian organization should be known for its vast wealth and holdings. Maybe it's just me, but I think Jesus had something far more glorious in mind than that which this world offers. I think Jesus meant for us to spare nothing for the cause of the Gospel.

28 posted on 02/28/2013 11:39:10 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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