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A Reformed Farewell to Benedict XVI
Out Of The Horses Mouth ^ | 28 Feb 2013 | Michael Horton

Posted on 02/28/2013 6:52:42 AM PST by Gamecock

Taken from the highest ranks of the clergy, popes should be among the best living pastors, biblical scholars, and theologians. That this has often not been the case is obvious enough throughout history, as any well-informed Roman Catholic will concede. (More than a few instances of corruption and heresy may be found on the Protestant side as well.)

However, Benedict XVI has regularly been impressive on these counts. Living alongside Protestants in Germany, he often engages Reformation views with more sympathy and knowledge than most—especially more than many Protestants who convert to Rome and trade on caricatures of the evangelical faith based on the worst of evangelicalism.

One example of Pope Benedict’s judicious engagement is the way he explains the context that helped to provoke the Reformation. Though he realizes that there was more to it, he refers to the Great Western Schism (1309-1417). Not many people know about this today, so it’s worth considering.

Often called the “Babylonian Captivity of the Church,” the Schism was provoked by the election of rival popes and the removal of the papacy from Rome to Avignon, France. Before becoming pope, Benedict explained,

For nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form–the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution. (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1987), 196)

Throughout the Middle Ages there had been a running feud between popes and kings, leading to excommunication from the one and imprisonment by the other. However, the disruption of the papal succession provoked widespread anxiety within the church—and indeed, the whole of Christendom. Between 1305 and 1377, the pope was French and so were most of his cardinals. The schism was consummated when Pope Urban VI in Rome and Pope Clement VII in Avignon excommunicated each other—and therefore all of those under each other’s respective sees. They continued this division by appointed their own successors.

Who would resolve this stand-off? Some leading theologians had argued for a while that church councils always had priority over the pope until fairly recently. The early ecumenical councils were a prime example.

However, in this case councils it became clear that councils, too, were fallible. The Council of Pisa (1409) elected a third pope to replace the two rivals. At the Council of Constance (1414-18), where the reformer Jan Hus was condemned to the flames, the two rival popes and the third pope were replaced now by a fourth, Martin V. It came at a cost to the papacy: the Council declared its sovereignty over the pope. Pope Martin, who could not attend, declared its position on this matter null. As a binding council, some Roman Catholic theologians today invoke its memory for a new conciliar movement.

Between the 14th and 16th centuries, leading theologians defended the authority of Scripture over councils and of councils over the pope, drawing on the example of the ancient church. Arguing that Scripture is above the whole church, William of Ockham (d. 1349) argued that the whole church (including laity) should hold a council to elect the pope and limit his authority. It is this whole church that is the communion of saints, not the Roman church. If a pope falls into heresy, a council can judge him without his approval. Marsilius of Padua agreed (Defensor Pacis, 1324): the church consists of all the faithful, not just priests. Christ is the only head of the church. More conservative reformists defended the principle of Scripture’s magisterial authority and the priority of councils over the papacy. These included the leading Sorbonne theologian Jean Gerson, as well as Pierre d’Ailly, Francesco Zabarella, and Nicholas of Cusa.

The last gasp of the conciliar movement came at the Council of Basel (1431-49). Papalists formed Council of Florence, while conciliar party in Basel elected another pope. Martin called it but died before it met. Eugenius IV succeeded him and was prevented by health from presiding. He couldn’t have done so in any case, as the fathers declared (on the basis of Constance) that the Council was superior to the pope. Eugenius made concession after concession until he finally submitted. His papal legates could only attend if they accepted this as well, though they were duplicitous afterwards.

Finally, on the eve of the Reformation, Pope Julius II reasserted papal primacy and packed the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-17) with cardinals who supported him. Thomas Cajetan, famous (among other things) as Luther’s curial opponent, staunchly defended papal primacy. In condemning the Reformation, the Council of Trent also condemned positions that had been argued by theologians well within its pale for centuries.

With the First Vatican Council in the 1850s, papal infallibility became binding dogma—necessary for salvation. In spite of a few statements in Lumen Gentium exploited by more liberal theologians, Vatican II and the latest Catholic Catechism reaffirm that there is no full and perfect communion with Christ apart from obedience to the pope. Before becoming Benedict XVI, and since, Cardinal Ratzinger defended these views with great energy and skill. I have no doubt that he will continue to do so.

But this tale does clear our eyes from the foggy mists of sentimentalism. Is the Roman Catholic Church united by an unbroken succession from St. Peter? Roman Catholic theologians—and especially historians—know that an uncomplicated “yes” will not do. Are the church’s decisions irreformable? Then what about the Council of Constance? Even the Council of Basel was a duly constituted synod. Whose conclusions are binding? At the very least, Rome has compromised its claim of an unbroken unity—not only between councils and popes, but within the papal line itself. It can invent theories of “anti-popes” to preserve its claim to valid succession. But even if one were to accept the idea in principle, history has already provided too much contrary evidence. Romantic glances across the Tiber are thwarted by the reality. At the end of the day, this story provides one more reminder that the church that is created by the Word and stands under that Word, with all of its besetting sins and errors, is still the safest place to be in a fallen world and imperfect church.

Further Reading:
•C. M. D. Crowder, Unity, Heresy, and Reform, 1378-1460: The Conciliar Response to the Great Schism (New York : St. Martin’s Press, 1977).
•Oakley, Francis. The Conciliarist Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003).


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: benedict; farewell; theend; vatican
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To: Dutchboy88; CynicalBear; metmom; mitch5501; daniel1212; boatbums

Circumcision has always puzzled me, too. All we are told about it is that circumcision was the outward show of faith that GOd commanded and the Abrahamic Covenant with circumcision as a show of faith was the “sign” that was given by God to Abraham to perform, not only to separate him and his seed from the ungodly world of the Gentiles, but also as a “seal” of the righteousness of faith. (Rom. 4:11). Also, and mainly, as a token of God’s covenant with him. (Gen. 17:11). The covenant being that Abraham’s multiplied seed (later called “the Circumcision”) was to become a blessing to all nations. That’s all I know about it, but it is a very interesting topic, I think.


101 posted on 03/02/2013 12:54:15 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: metmom
Scripture is the final authority.

Scripture interpreted according to whom? We cannot put Scripture in the dock and ask it which interpretation is correct.

As far as what I say, I state my position and appeal to Scripture as the final authority to back it up

And another appeals to Scripture as the final authority for a different view. Now what?

102 posted on 03/02/2013 1:03:29 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: metmom
Anything outside of Scripture used to determine who Jesus is

Those who say Jesus is not what you say Jesus is say get it from the same Scripture you do. Read some of the history of heresies; Arius, for example, argued from Scripture.

I am in the body of Christ by faith in Him, not part of any denomination by adherence to any creed.

Except your own creed, which is fine, you can decide what you believe according to Scripture as you see it.

These beliefs are your creed.

103 posted on 03/02/2013 1:06:56 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: smvoice

That jibes with my understandings, but I agree...very interesting yet sketchy subject.


104 posted on 03/02/2013 1:17:23 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: wmfights
True, an di need to improve in heart and in deed.

The Gospel According to You


You are writing a gospel, a chapter each day,


By the deeds that you do, by the words that you say;


Men read what you write, whether faithless or true.


Say – what is the gospel, according to you?


- Paul Gilbert -

The World’s Bible


We are the only Bible the careless world will read,


We are the sinner’s Gospel; we are the scoffer’s creed.


We are the Lord’s last message given in deed and word,


What if the type is crooked? What if the print is blurred?


What if your hands are busy with other work than His?


What if your feet are walking where sin’s allurement is?


What if our tongues are speaking of things His lips would spurn?


How can we hope to help Him and hasten His return?


To hasten our Lord’s return we truly need more power.


So let us all be Spirit filled and awaiting Him each hour.


In an hour that we think not, He said He should appear.


Then let us walk in Holiness and meet Him with a cheer.


Part of a poem by Annie Johnson Flint, born 1866. Read short biography here: http://www.preceptaustin.org/annie_johnson_flint's_biography.htm

105 posted on 03/02/2013 1:19:50 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: wmfights; metmom; D-fendr; daniel1212; boatbums
Tolerance: The last and only virtue of the completely immoral society.

I believe the time for being nicey, nicey is over. It’s time to speak in love and truth. It’s going to get brutal after Jesus takes His bride off this earth. Our directive is to point to Christ and His words in scripture. If that offends some it’s not our responsibility to make them feel all fuzzy inside.

106 posted on 03/02/2013 3:11:04 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: wmfights; smvoice
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all the Reformation churches are supersessionist. It is the Christian Churches that were never apart of the Church-State system that recognize that GOD is not done with Israel and that the covenants made with Israel have not been transferred to Christians.<<

Supersessionism causes all types of confusion in understanding scripture. God said His covenant with Israel was “forever”. There are still seven years of His promise to deal with them as a separate people. I think you are correct in that most if not all of the refomation churches are supersessionist. That's just one of the errors brought over from the RCC.

107 posted on 03/02/2013 3:25:36 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
>>How do you get the Bible alone as the sole rule of faith out of this?<<

It’s rather easy and obvious really. The Bereans were commended for checking even everything Paul taught against scripture.

108 posted on 03/02/2013 3:28:53 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: D-fendr; metmom
>>What is questionable is every individual's authority to determine what the scriptures mean.<<

Every individual? Do you not understand the promise we have been given as believers?

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

You see. It’s not “every individual” if they are true believers. It’s the Holy Spirit who teaches each individual. There is no higher “authority” than that of the Holy Spirit and He has been given to each of us who are true believers.

109 posted on 03/02/2013 3:48:33 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: CynicalBear
There is no higher “authority” than that of the Holy Spirit and He has been given to each of us who are true believers.

I afraid you haven't dealt with the object of discussion. You still have disagreement on the meaning and interpretation of Holy Scripture among those who say they are true believers.

Why should they take your word or your authority over theirs or someone else's?

110 posted on 03/02/2013 3:55:22 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; metmom
>>You said scripture is all we need - yet it wasn’t all you needed to describe your position, make your argument, etc. Scripture wasn’t all you needed.<<

Sola Scriptura does NOT preclude someone explaining what is being taught. That would be Solo Scriptura. Sola Scriptura simply means that what someone teaches must be verified by scripture or it isn’t to be used.

111 posted on 03/02/2013 3:55:51 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: D-fendr; metmom
>>Using the same source, Holy Scripture, there have been different interpretations on these questions.<<

Not if they are relying on the Holy Spirit to teach and using ALL of scripture.

112 posted on 03/02/2013 3:58:13 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: CynicalBear
Sola Scriptura does NOT preclude someone explaining what is being taught.

Different folks 'splain it different ways.

what someone teaches must be verified by scripture or it isn’t to be used.

Verified by whom? A Oneness Pentecostal? A Calvinist? Arminian? Unitarian? Baptist? Anglican? Binny Hinn? :)

113 posted on 03/02/2013 3:59:43 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: CynicalBear
Not if they are relying on the Holy Spirit to teach and using ALL of scripture.

They are, according to them, just as you are according to you.

You have equal authority as true believers, yes? Or does each decide the other isn't really a true believer?

114 posted on 03/02/2013 4:01:10 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: CynicalBear

What is illustrated is that sola scriptura fails in practice. It does not result in “one Lord, one faith, one baptism.”


115 posted on 03/02/2013 4:03:37 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: CynicalBear

What is illustrated is that sola scriptura fails in practice. It does not result in “one Lord, one faith, one baptism.”


116 posted on 03/02/2013 4:03:37 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; wmfights
>>That requires an authority outside of Scripture.<< That would be the Holy Spirit only and all believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Some don’t listen to Him and try to fit their beliefs into scripture as the RCC and others do.
117 posted on 03/02/2013 4:04:47 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: D-fendr; metmom
>>Scripture interpreted according to whom?<<

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. John 14:16,17

118 posted on 03/02/2013 4:10:46 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: CynicalBear

So you agree with the Church’s interpretation. Welcome aboard!

:)


119 posted on 03/02/2013 4:13:25 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
>>You still have disagreement on the meaning and interpretation of Holy Scripture among those who say they are true believers.<<

That’s easy. If one does not use all of scripture while using scripture to interpret scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit one will not understand what scripture is saying. The problem enters when someone starts to rely on some “majesterium”, “council”, or other so called “authority” for interpretation. All error can be traced back to either relying on some “authority” outside of scripture or taking only portions of scripture then trying to fit other scripture into an erroneous preconceived idea of what they thought that original portion was saying.

120 posted on 03/02/2013 4:17:37 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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