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To: Mrs. Don-o
"I'm not telling you anything radical or new. That's just the way language works: the meaning of key words of the NT (like "Logos" and "Ousios") is understood by the way in which they were used in a Hellenistic social and intellectual context, especially by their best speakers/writers, the poets and philosophers."

Who told you that? Quite to the contrary. For example when Peter used the term "Hades" as a Greek quivalent of the Hebrew "Sheol"(Ps. 16:10) in Acts 2:25-28 "Hades" was being used as simply the abode of the dead without all the philosophical trappings of classical Greek thought.

The same is true of the term "Logos" as John used it in John 1:1. John used "Logos" in a very restricted sense as is obvious from the rest of his gospel but the so-called "higher critics" would have us believe that John's usage was in some way reflective of the Greek philosophers.

They used "Logos" in the sense of reason or an ordering principle of the universe. John used the term for the prehuman Christ as a representive of his father, a spokesman.

"Read John 1:1. If you try to figure out the implications of θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, you're already in dialogue with Greek metaphysics."

Not so since John wrote under the influence of the holy spirit and not according to the hash of Greek metaphysical philosophy prevalent in his own day. It's not surprising that men steeped in the learning of the day would attempt to explain Christianity in the language of pagan Greek philosophy in order to make one palatable to the other.

"Pagan" Greek philosophy, recast in the discourse of Christian believers, becomes Christian Greek philosophy"

Really? Just consider for a moment the confusion wrought in the Bible's use of the terms Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and how these words are translated or the how the term soul is treated.

Attempting to hammer the teachings of Scripture into the shape of pagan Greek philosophy has produced such "kerosene in wine" teachings as purgatory and confusion over what the resurrection is.

"Read John 1:1. If you try to figure out the implications of θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, you're already in dialogue with Greek metaphysics."

Paul called the wisdom of the world folishness. "... It is an Areopagus moment: Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being". as certain also of your own poets have said " For we are also his offspring."

These Stoics and other Greek philosophers ridiculed Paul since he preached Christ and the resurrection of the dead. These Athenians owed Paul a debt as some became believers and are named near the end of Acts chapter 17.

21 posted on 02/10/2013 7:57:43 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
But that's OK. I didn't say that Paul adopted Greek philosophy tout court: I just said he couldn't avoid it, since he was speaking Greek. The words' meanings are adapted, modified, altered, revolutionized in contact with Holy Spirit-inspired thought.

Same thing if one is spewaking N ahuatl or Mandarin. You are using words that have a background. A hypertext. Even if you distinguish what you mean by it --- if you mean something unique ---you're culturally hypertexting.

Like I said: this is nothin' new.

Jesus Christ died for my sins, not Aristotle.

23 posted on 02/11/2013 3:07:31 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels. "- Walt Whitman)
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To: count-your-change
And BTW, I apologize to you if I have misunderstood the kernel of your argument. I am rushing through things these days, and may not have done justice to your main point.

In any case, I do not believe in "attempting to hammer the teachings of Scripture into the shape of pagan Greek philosophy," as you very aptly put it. That would be a big mistake. I am just pointing out that the knowledge we have about God via Jesus, the perfect Word, is transmitted through a Greek New Testament, which is necessarily in dialogue with Greek thought. That "dialogue" sometimes means that the writers have to distinguish themselves FROM Greek philosophical concepts.

Ironically, the intent of some of the Greek-language Scriptures (from Maccabees to the Epistles) was to reduce the influence of Hellenism and Hellenistic Judaism... paradoxically using Greek language to refine, redefine, or refute Greek concepts.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss these things. I beg your pardon if I have not dealt adequately with the good thjings you wrote. I am out digging new garden beds and planting garlic today, if the weather holds. So I'll be away fromt he computer, mostly.

Tagline is for you.

25 posted on 02/11/2013 5:16:57 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you and keep you, may He turn to you His countenance and give you peace.)
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