Posted on 02/08/2013 6:58:50 PM PST by daniel1212
The word Jesus stuck in my throat like an elephant tusk; no matter how hard I choked, I couldn't hack it out. Those who professed the name commanded my pity and wrath.
I began researching the Religious Right..
Ken Smith encouraged me to explore the kind of questions I admire:
Ken and his wife, Floy, and I became friends.
I started reading the Bible. I read the way a glutton devours.
I counted the costs. And I did not like the math on the other side..
Then, one ordinary day, I came to Jesus, openhanded..
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
I was going answer with a lot of what you have said but you have done a far better job than I could have thank-you and well done.
Mel
There have been many fine responses to your post. But I wonder if you have heard there are newly discovered fragments of Mark that are being dated to the first century. This would place them within the lifetimes of some of the physical eyewitnesses of the ministry of Christ. See more info here:
http://www.hughhewitt.com/transcripts.aspx?id=2ae35594-18e1-4776-bd4a-ca8f77c4deb6
Also, something to think about. Let’s say there was a person called Jesus, and he taught many good things, but was killed by the religious/political establishment of his day. Now picture yourself as one of his disciples. Jesus has just been killed, and the authorities might being coming after you next. What do you do? Hide in fear? Probably.
But now let’s say something happened, something so amazing it changes you, changes you and every one of your fearful, sorrowful, hiding companions into men and women with the boldness to go about in public preaching Jesus as the savior of humanity. What would it be like, really, to see him alive again, after having seen him killed on the cross? Would it not have exactly that effect? Wouldn’t your fears melt away and give way to an irrepressible joy you could not contain? Would you not then know that death really was not the end, and you could face it with confidence?
It is one of the most difficult problems faced by those who would discredit the existence of Jesus, or failing that, the claims of his resurrection. There is simply no easy way to explain how the disciples survived that first lethal blow. There should have been nothing left but cowards running from the destruction of their failed leader, who seemed to promise messianic revolution, but was now dead and cold in the tomb.
Instead, there was bold and convinced proclamation of an impossible fact, first a dozen, then hundreds, then thousands and more, all within the space of a few short months, an explosive increase of people willing to believe, preach and die for a man who, they said, had risen from the dead.
If it was false, and the establishment wished to stop this new religion in it’s cradle, why not simply discredit the lie that there even was such a person? But that was never attempted or even questioned. Why not? Or if he was, as everyone knew, quite real, why not produce the body? The authorities had the motive and the resources to do so, and if Jesus’ body was available, they certainly would have done so. It was bad politics, for both Rome and Israel, to let this thing go unchecked. Yet they could do nothing to stop it.
The most natural explanation is that something remarkable happened to turn things around for those first beleaguered disciples, something that corroborated everything Jesus had taught them, something very like a resurrection.
Food for thought...
Like every blessed conversion. Praise be to God for His grace and mercy.
And...it's good to know she's going to a Reformed church. ;O)
It’s called “irresistible grace”.
AMEN!
That might be but did you ever talked to Him about the problem?
Oh? In what way?
Did you ever see Buddhists do the same thing?
And...
Early Jewish sources mentioning Jesus; though not by name -
although you'll have to dig them out for yourself with a study bible that has good references:
NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'
NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "
NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.
NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."
NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "
NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'
NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'
NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."
NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "
NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.
NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'
NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'
NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?
NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.
NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '
NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.
NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "
NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."
NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."
NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."
NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --
NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."
NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?
NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."
NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.
NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.
NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."
NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."
NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"
NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
Actually; it does...
I was a broken mess. I did not want to lose everything that I loved. But the voice of God sang a sanguine love song in the rubble of my world.
It is indeed!
If we didn't; then most of us would be stuck on the wrong path.
Too many ‘modernists’ make the assumption that because BOOKS were in short supply back in the day, that READING was also.
It was mentioned that Jesus wrote in the sand.
WHY? if none could read?
Ya think??
Luke 1
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Drop Einstien off in Kathmandu, and HE'd be illiterate!
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
1 John 3:21-24
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
A 20# fish CAN be caught on a 5# line; if it's played right.
I was a young man; far from home.
A flatlander from central Indiana; now in the Air Force in Denver.
After watching a late night movie about the miracles at Lourdes at a local girl's house; I was walking back to the base, mulling over what I'd seen.
"Bunk!", thought I. That kinda stuff don't happen - except in movies.
It was a cold night - fall or maybe early winter. The stars were ablaze in that crisp latenight air.
As I looked up, the thought of evolution came to mind and how it explained how the Big Bang created all of what I was seeing. How the MASSIVE! outburst of energy spewed out all of this matter.
Yeah; that's how it happen, thought I!
Einstein - E=mc2 THAT was the ticket!
I was fine, then, walking along. Secure in my knowledge.
Then, in an almost audible voice, these words formed in my mind...
"Where did the ENERGY come from?"
Faith in Him should be enough to believe in our Creator.
However, historical writings, artifacts, simple common sense...and THE Shroud should be enough as well.
Certainly an “Intelligent Designer” of the Universe is self evident based on the perfect balance where we exist in space. Additionally, the deep complexity of human DNA still remains a mystery and to believe this was formed by itself from nothing is simply idiotic.
re: the Shroud, carbon dating of the ORIGINAL section (not the repaired section initially tested) proves it was created during the time of Christ.
Scientists discovered the pollen was unique to the geographic area that Christ resided.
It’s also been shown the 3D image on the Shroud was likely caused by a “mini-nuclear” micro-second explosion similar to the Big Bang.
That in 2000 years, this 3D image on a cloth has NEVER been reproduced.
If a Christian believes and it turns out they were wrong, no downside.
If an atheist is wrong, the downside is HUGE!
Choose wisely....
As a fairly good student of math; I knew the equation could be re-written:
m=E/c2
but that didn't help answer The Question...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.