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To: Free Vulcan
It’s hard to say that the Latins were the dominant Catholic church since before Constantine when you have the Orthodox church sitting within the preeminent Eastern Roman Empire while Rome was both a piece of the Empire for part of, and more or less on it’s back for a good deal of the other part of the last half of the first millennium.

The thing is that you are taking a split of 1054 and projecting it backwards

in 315 AD when Christianity was no longer outlawed (but not the state religion), there was no large Church at Constantinople -- the 4 Churches were Rome, Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem. Jerusalem was nowhere near the force it was due to the destruction in 69 AD -- it sunk into nominal significance. Ditto for Antioch -- difficult to defend and threatened with sacking by the Persians -- it was sacked twice by the Persians in 250-256 AD

There was basically Alexandria and Rome. The Alexandrians did produce the larger chunk of Church Fathers, it was a center of Christianity and if you look at real numbers you would think that they would get primacy. Yet, the bishop of Rome was given primacy -- in the sense of first among equals and in many councils as the deciding vote

And this way it remained during the first decades of a non-persecuted Christianity in the Roman Empire

now, by the time Christianity was made state religion -- in 395 AD, yes, Byzantine had waxed in importance and so too had the Patriarch of Byzantine

Yet, there is still no separation of orthodoxy -- Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Rome and Byzantine are united

Theodosius II elevates Byzantine to the pentarchy, purely as the Emperor was sitting there -- and yes, that made sense

From that point on there is a tussle between Rome and Byzantine -- but not a tussle between Latins and Orthodox as you are projecting backwards

The Byzantine Church has some problems like Patriarch Nestorius etc.

And, in all of these cases, the role of the Patriarch of the West remains as the primus inter pares -- there is no doubt of that

To a specific sense that you make of "a dominant Church within the Catholic Church" -- if you mean one ruling over the others like the medieval papacy, then yes, you are correct. If you mean one given spiritual 'first among equals' place, then no, you are wrong

40 posted on 01/21/2013 10:53:42 PM PST by Cronos (Middle English prest, priest, Old English pruost, Late Latin presbyter, Latin presbuteros)
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To: Cronos

You forget about the first split over the veneration of icons, coming out of the second council of Nicaea. After that the Latins and Orthodox pretty much de facto go their separate ways, capped by Pope Leo crowning Charlemagne as Imperator Romanus.

And no, at the point, at least on the surface, they weren’t hostile, but the division was there, and had been there since the Lombards. It just widened over time due to various events, but in reality Rome had always sought it’s own destiny over the other churches. In many respects the Latins did what the Protestants did centuries later vis a vis Constantinople.

Which is fine in my book. They were the proper church at the time to win and organize the Germanic tribes in Western Europe out of paganism, even if they had their missteps and corrupt Popes. As far as the current, I have great respect for Popes Benedict and John Paul II. They do and did tell it like it is.

I only have a problem with those Latinophiles that seem to want to rewrite history to make Rome the dominant church since Christ, when clearly they were not for centuries, in principle or actuality.


45 posted on 01/22/2013 7:45:56 AM PST by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! [You can vote Democrat when you're dead]...)
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