Hey roamer, I think you did a wonderful job of not tirading (is that a verb?) and of sticking to the subject with no disrespect. It looks to me like we've got a reasonable discussion going here.
Hey... IS THAT ALLOWED???? :o)
I am puzzled by your assertion that Yeshua/Jesus is the perfect "container" of the Law and the promises of Yahweh. Jesus is not a "container" at all: He IS God! There is only one God, Yahweh, and He's Him! (Note that I am not saying that Jesus is the Father, but that Jesus IS God. Jesus says "the Father and I are One.")
Thus the New Testament "Ark" or "container" would have to be someone who was overshadowed by the Glory of God and became the one to carry Jesus. Mary carried Jesus for 9 months. The analogy is wonderful.
Where do I get all this from? Some pope or bishoip? No, I get it from Scripture: and in particular, from the Gospel of Luke.
St. Luke clearly wanted us to see Mary as the New Ark. Inspired by God, he parallels many of his verses with those used to describe the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Compare, for example, Luke's words with 2 Samuel 6 below:
| 2 Samuel 6:2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims. |
Luke 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda |
| 2 Samuel 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me? |
Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? |
| 2 Samuel 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months... |
Luke 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months... |
| 2 Samuel 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD [His Presence over the Ark] |
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: |
In the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant, overshadowed by the the Spirit of God, was the instrument through which God came to dwell among men; in the New Testament, Mary, overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, is the instrument through which God came to dwell among men. She is the Ark of the New Covenant.
And here's a biggie: look carefully at Revelation 11:19-12:1. St. John tells us what he sees in Heaven: "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars [this woman, we are told later in chapter 12, is the one who brought forth the man child who would rule over the nations, ie, Christ].
Keep in mind, too, that chapter and verse divisions did not exist until the Middle Ages: what John says he saw is the Ark of the Covenant -- a woman. Really -- think about this: there is the Ark of the Covenant, lost for generations, in the Heavenly Temple! Then come the "special effects" -- lightning! Thunder! The very earth shakes! And there is the woman who brought forth the man child who who would rule over the nations... Mary, the pure and holy Ark of the New Covenant. [Note that the Woman of Revelation 12 is also a symbol of the Church: there is dual meaning here!]
" Mary did not go before Israel in battle,"
But Mary carried in her body, Him who went into battle. There was great "enmity" between her and the serpent."It was not Mary who destroyed Israel's enemies with incredible power"
No, she bore Him who destroyed the Enemy. After all, it is not the "container," which does these things, whether we're speaking of the Ark or of Mary. It is GOD who does these things.
Mary is not the Mercy Seat of YHWH.
No, she is the Ark of the New Covenant.. She HOLDS the Mercy Seat.
Praise be to You, Lord Jesus Christ!
And God bless you, roamer_1.
(And a friendly hello from my don-o, too.)
It looks to me like we've got a reasonable discussion going here. Hey... IS THAT ALLOWED???? :o)LOL! I dunno... The Rel Mod might find it to be an interesting new twist!
I am puzzled by your assertion that Yeshua/Jesus is the perfect "container" of the Law and the promises of Yahweh. Jesus is not a "container" at all:
In the same way that any of us are a container... This sack o' meat is not me. It is a mere husk on a seed (And it must be one heck of a big seed to judge from the meat-sack it is in... Just sayin :P ). And even the soul within is meant to be filled. The Seed is the seed, no matter if it is in His mother, or walking among men, or hanging on the cross, or planted in the ground. One may as well be bowing down to the earth for having once contained Him. Nay rather, Bow down to Him.
Thus the New Testament "Ark" or "container" would have to be someone who was overshadowed by the Glory of God and became the one to carry Jesus. Mary carried Jesus for 9 months. The analogy is wonderful.
Just because an analogy is wonderful does not make it true. Rainbows, flying unicorns farting skittles, and all that. Stuff that myths are made of.
St. Luke clearly wanted us to see Mary as the New Ark. Inspired by God, he parallels many of his verses with those used to describe the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Compare, for example, Luke's words with 2 Samuel 6
Yes, I am well aware that the RCC considers the Bible to be a big word-match game... Funny that they are willing to do that, but are so against 'Bible code' phenomena, which is basically word-search and crossword kinda slammed together. It is of little consequence to me, as I would much rather spend my time in the literal sense and in the concepts generated therein. And 'mariology' is not among them, to say the least. One must be cautious of twisting the Word - One can make it say any number of things with such cherry-picking. The Law makes for a very sure safety valve on such things.
In the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant, overshadowed by the the Spirit of God, was the instrument through which God came to dwell among men; in the New Testament, Mary, overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, is the instrument through which God came to dwell among men. She is the Ark of the New Covenant.
I would submit that there is no new covenant - it is a renewed covenant, as the Torah predicts. Melchizedek transcends Levi only because Melchizedek precedes Levi. If it were new, it would of a necessity be false. Folks tend to forget that YHWH's word does not return to Him empty, and every last jot and tittle will be done.
And here's a biggie: look carefully at Revelation 11:19-12:1. St. John tells us what he sees in Heaven: "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars [this woman, we are told later in chapter 12, is the one who brought forth the man child who would rule over the nations, ie, Christ].
I do not see this the way you do - That there is an Ark goes without saying - everything on earth has it's counterpart in heaven. You are correct that the 'woman' passage is adjacent to the 'Ark' passage, but that does not mean that it requires a comparison - and even if it does, that does not mean the comparison is correct. One must shed the scales on Roman eyes to see it any differently: If one were to compare them because they are adjacent, what would the average Hebrew see therein?
what John says he saw is the Ark of the Covenant -- a woman.
No, that is hardly a provable scenario.
there is the Ark of the Covenant, lost for generations, in the Heavenly Temple!
again, for every object on earth there is it's counterpart in Heaven. The temple was made to resemble the abode of YHWH, as was the tabernacle. The Ark before Him is not the one which was here on earth.
[roamer_1:] Mary did not go before Israel in battle [...]
But Mary carried in her body, Him who went into battle.
You miss the point: The Ark itself went before the Israelites in battle. It was physically carried before them. It is not Mary being symbolized there. Mary was not leading them.
[roamer_1:] Mary is not the Mercy Seat of YHWH. [...]
No, she is the Ark of the New Covenant.. She HOLDS the Mercy Seat.
Oh, STOP! Let's think about it another way: Envision the Ark as a throne - the Shekinah Glory would sit upon it when YHWH was among His people... Who do you suppose sits upon it now? Mary? Because I have seen blasphemous artwork depicting exactly that.
After all, it is not the "container," which does these things, whether we're speaking of the Ark or of Mary. It is GOD who does these things.
See the meat-sack comments above.
Have a nice day.