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To: Cronos

Of course this priesthood thing is a perpetual bone of contention between Catholics and protestants. I myself am firmly in the camp of the “priesthood of all believers.” Any Christian has direct access through prayer, even silent prayer, to God and Jesus, our living high priest, through the Holy Spirit within us. There is no need for an earthly, human intercessor, let alone anyone to continue making offerings to God. The one, true sacrifice was made by Christ himself.

I think the prevailing view is that the Israelites abdicated their role as a “nation of priests” with their little foray into gold-calf making. It was after that, in his anger and disappointment, that God ordained the Aaronic priesthood, which continued until the destruction of the last temple in 70 AD and the end of ritual sacrifice. Nowhere does Jesus or any of the apostles talk of an intercessory priesthood for Christians after his death. Teachers, preachers, evangelists, yes, but not priests making sacrifices or standing in between God and his saints, absolving sin or prescribing penance.

To be a bit more cynical about it, I’m highly suspicious and generally disdainful of the Religious Professionals (RPs, I call them) who make a comfortable living feeding off the Lord’s flock. Ezekiel 34 ought to give pause to any self-anointed shepherds who go into the ministry (Catholic or Protestant) to enjoy a cushy lifestyle with no heavy lifting. The way the whole sacramental thing has evolved strikes me as something akin to trade unionism, designed to ensure full employment for the RP class. Fortunately, according to the Anglican 39 Articles, the moral corruption of clergy does not invalidate the administration of sacraments.


91 posted on 01/03/2013 2:31:45 PM PST by Tenega
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To: Tenega

>> “ the moral corruption of clergy does not invalidate the administration of sacraments.” <<

.
When you break the bread, and drink the wine/juice, you’re having a symbolic meal with Yeshua, in remembrance of his broken body that heals yours, and his shed blood that paid for your sins.

It has nothing to do with any clergy, you can buy or bake the bread yourself, and do it at home, or in a motel room, and it remains the same. I would hesitate to partake of any bread offered by one who believes that he has conjured up the body of Yeshua therein. That is no better than eating the meat offered to idols.


92 posted on 01/03/2013 3:40:46 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Tenega
Any Christian has direct access through prayer, even silent prayer, to God and Jesus, our living high priest, through the Holy Spirit within us. There is no need for an earthly, human intercessor, let alone anyone to continue making offerings to God. The one, true sacrifice was made by Christ himself.

and that is orthodox teaching. The Church holds that, just as with the ancient Israelites, we are all a "nation of priests" and just as the ancient Israelites had ministerial priests set aside (Levites), so too do we have in the Church

The same structure -- with the difference that the High Priest is eternal Jesus Christ who is present at each Eucharist, each Mass

the Israelites abdicated their role as a “nation of priests” with their little foray into gold-calf making. -- sorry, that doesn't hold as we read in Exodus 16 how Aaron and Moses preach to the Israelites

Even in Exodus 19 with the pronouncement of you[a] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ -- these come from God through Moses and in Exodus 19:22 you read And let the priests also, which come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.

This was before Moses went up into Mt. Sinai

97 posted on 01/03/2013 11:50:04 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Tenega
And, as the Church holds, we all of course pray to Christ directly and at the Highest prayer, during the Eucharist, Christ IS present as the High Priest

Christ is the High Priest and we are all His priestly nation -- whether lay priests or ministerial priests

The High Priest, Jesus Christ is the High Priest and the one-time Sacrifice -- note, this is a participation in the One-Time sacrifice famously captured by Van Eyck in the 14th century painting

We are participating in Christ's one-time sacrifice which as seen in the words of the Apocalypse of St. John of Patmos, as seen in Heaven is the Lamb standing proudly with the blood of Christ in the Eucharist

NOTE: the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros (presbyster/elder) -- these have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

98 posted on 01/04/2013 12:02:12 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Tenega
Ezekiel 34 ought to give pause to any self-anointed shepherds who go into the ministry (Catholic or Protestant) to enjoy a cushy lifestyle with no heavy lifting. -- agreed.
99 posted on 01/04/2013 12:02:46 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Tenega
the moral corruption of clergy does not invalidate the administration of sacraments

correct. That is because these are in the end just the ministers performing their duty, while the real grace comes from the High Priest

100 posted on 01/04/2013 12:04:33 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Tenega; editor-surveyor
I would hesitate to partake of any bread offered by one who believes that he has conjured up the body of Yeshua therein.

err no one believes that the minister "conjures up" anything

1 Cor 11:23-26

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

and all of this is confirmed in Paul's writings to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 10:16)

6 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
and also 1 Cor 11:27-29
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
How clear can Paul get? "The bread IS a participation in the body of Christ" and "who eats the bread... will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord" This is not just mere bread and wine anymore. This is the body and blood of Christ.

Finally, the Earliest Christians also said any consideration of this as just a metaphor was false -- Ignature of Antioch (disciple of Apotle John) wrote in AD 110 wrote about heretics who abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again" (Letter to the SMyrnaens). The earliest Christians beleived this to be the ACTUAL body of Christ.
101 posted on 01/04/2013 12:12:41 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Tenega; editor-surveyor
the body of Yeshua therein. That is no better than eating the meat offered to idols.

In fact, e-s, your statements are similar to the false accusations made of the Early Christians -- The earliest Christians beleived this to be the ACTUAL body of Christ. Why, they were also accused by pagans of being cannibals and Justin MArtyr had to write a defence to the Emperor saying "Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus"

The first Christians knew that the Eucharist was/is a sacrifice, the one-time sacrifice

This is as per Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

If you read in the Didache (from AD 70) you will read that

"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14
This was KNOWN by the Early Christians as the participation in Christ's One-time, pure sacrifice
102 posted on 01/04/2013 12:25:55 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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