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To: RobbyS
In any case, many different stories can be created to fit the facts related in the New Testament, including the doctrine of perpetual virginity.

Indeed!

One has!


Here are the FACTS of the matter:


Matthew 1:25
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

340 posted on 12/21/2012 2:40:31 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Which can be translated as “ he had no intercourse with her before she gave birth to a son. “ The point being that HE was not the father of Jesus.”


343 posted on 12/21/2012 2:52:30 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: Elsie
Matthew 1:25
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

'Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians argue, in support of the perpetual virginity of Mary, that "until" in this verse does not mean that after Mary had borne Jesus, Joseph and she had marital relations. I.e., they assert that "until" (ἕως οὗ in the Greek) does not automatically or always imply that there is a change of condition after the "until" event occurs.

'They are correct in this. The context of the "until" phrase, the nature and setting of the action or activity - i.e., what's being done or not being done "until" - has to be considered in order to determine if the "until" event marks or causes a change in the prior action or non-action.'

http://theoblogoumena.blogspot.com/2011/04/matthew-125-what-does-until-mean.html

344 posted on 12/21/2012 2:53:23 PM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: Elsie

Elsie:

Fact 1:

In Genesis which details the account of Noah and the ark, we read “Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made and sent forth a raven and it went to and fro UNTIL the waters were dried from the earth [c.f. Gen 8:7].

Question, Did the Raven return to Noah after the waters were dried?

Fact 2:

In Deuteronomy we read the account of Moses death as we read “But no man knows the place of this burial to this day [UNTIL] this day” [cf. Deut 34:6]

Question, does anyone know Moses place of burial after this day refered to in Deut 34:6

Fact 3:

In Second Samuel, we read about Saul’s daughter Michal as it states “And so Saul’s daughter Michal was childless to the day of her death” [Cf. 2 Samuel 6:23]

Question, do you believe that Michal had a child after her death.

Fact 4:

In the Psalms we read “The Lord says to my lord, sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool” [cf. Psalm 110:1]

Question, this is a clear prefiguration of Christ, so do we believe that Christ does not sit at God’s [The Father] Right hand after the enemies are his footstool, does that mean Christ now sits some other place?

Fact 5:

In First Maccabees we read the revolt against the Greek sacralige of the temple “Judas kept rounding up the stragglers and encouraging the people the whole way, until he reached the land of Judah. They ascended Mount Zion with gladness and joy and offered burnt offerings, because not one of them had fallen” [cf. 1 Mac 5:53-54]

Question, while 1 Macc is not in the Protestant Canon [it is in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox], it is similar in usage. Thus, are we to believe that Judas stopped encouraging his troops after they reached Judah. Does that mean all the soldiers died after they made their offerings?

Fact 6:

In the New Testament we read “For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” [cf. 1 Cor 15:25]

Question, Does this mean that Christ no longer rules after he puts his enemies under his feet. Clearly, the Bishops and Theologians at the Council of Nicea [[325AD] did not interpret it this way because it states “And His Kingdom will have no end” meaning he will rule/reign forever.

Fact 7:

Again in the NT, we read “Until I come, attend to the reading [public reading of scripture], exhortation[preaching] and teaching” [cf. 1 Timothy 4:13]

Question, does this mean that the Church where Timothy was sheparding should stop reading the scripture, preaching and teaching, after Paul arrived.?

So at some level, if you are 100% certain that the word until in Matthew 1:25 means what you say it means, then to internally consistent you should interpret the passages above the same way.


350 posted on 12/21/2012 9:12:12 PM PST by CTrent1564
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