Rome's New and Novel Concept of Tradition Living Tradition (Viva Voce - Whatever We Say)

Monergism.com ^ | 12/17/2012 | William Webster

[Elsie]

1. That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the Church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the Church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time.

We've seen just what that ROCK is; haven't we...

[Al Hitan]

.....No other rock............. And now you know the Biblical position!

Oops. You left out one:

JN 1:42 Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon, son of John: you shall be called Cephas" --that is to say, Peter (or 'Rock').

[Elsie]

Yup; and he was called this and IS still called this.

[Al Hitan]

Yup; and he was called this and IS still called this.

Yes, he is still known as Cephas.

Cephas definition

a Syriac surname given by Christ to Simon (John 1:42), meaning "rock."

[narses]

[Running On Empty]

Thanks very much for your encouragement.

The following are words which have been a blessing to me:

“Beloved:
Sanctify Christ in your hearts
Always be ready to give an explanation
for a reason for your hope,
but do it with gentleness and reverence.”

“He who loves his brother abides in the light”

CRUSADE Of LOVE

“Respect everyone—Christ lives in everyone
Be sensitive to others—they are your brothers and sisters
Try to find something good, even in the worst circumstances
Do not cast a slur on anyone
Repair any harm resulting from an uttered word
Do not provoke strife between people
Speak to everyone in the language of love
Do not vex others
Reassure others
Forgive everything
Do not hold grudges
Always be the first to extend your hand as a sign of reconciliation
Act always to your neighbors advantage
Never give a thought to what others owe you , but what you owe them
Do good things to others, as you should like them done to you
Be actively compassionate in time of suffering
Be quick to offer consolation, counsel, assistance, kindness
Share your goods
Pray for everyone”
-—Cardinal Stefan Wyszynski
Polish priest who was imprisoned and suffered at the hands of the Polish Communists

.................................
And this too has helped me

SOME DIFFICULT THINGS TO DO

To be sorry
To admit guilt
To love an enemy
To think logically
To confess ignorance
To withhold judgment
To wait without impatience
To persevere without haste
To decide without prejudice
To know when to keep silent
To be indifferent to ridicule
To endure without resentment
To hate sin but love the sinner
To concentrate in the midst of strife

[CynicalBear]

>>For one, perhaps Paul did not want to state<<

Perhaps??? Perhaps???

>>St. Clement of Rome strongly implies that<<

Implies?? Implies??

>>Rather than me continue to debate you, I will defer to Philip Schaff’s translation of St. Clement of Rome’s Letter to the Church at Corinth which indicates that both St. Peter and Paul were killed in Rome.<<

Neither of the sites you included even hint at Peter having been or died in Rome. I seems to me your entire premise of Peter having been in Rome is based on conjecture. Certainly not something I’m going to follow. As I have stated. There is no scriptural proof that Peter was ever in Rome. If you can’t find that for me I’ll remain convinced he was never there.

[CynicalBear]

>>If Mry is supposed to “take the place of God,” <<

Who ever said she “takes the place of God”? Catholics put her alongside God and in many cases between God and man.

>>why are there so few references to her in the mass?<<

I have no idea. Pope John Paull II dedicated himself and his Pontificate to Our Lady.' He bears the letter "M" for Mary in his coat of arms. And his personal motto, which is embroidered on the side of his robes in Latin is the following: "TOTUS TUUS SUM MARIA", which in English translates to: "MARY, I'M ALL YOURS." Not dedicated to Jesus mind you but to Mary! That pretty much says it all in my thinking.

Here’s another indication of her status.

"Oh Lady, you are the refuge of all the abandoned; behold me here and now abandoned by all. You are my only hope. You alone are my only hope; you alone can help me; have pity on me." [Taken from the Glories of Mary. Chapter 7, Page 132. By St. Alphonsus

Mary is their only hope? Really? Compare that to what scripture says.

Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. [11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. [12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

[Iscool]

"If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates."

Well you got the wrong one then...Most of the American Catholics ARE part of the World since they voted in our current President, twice...And it appears that most of the World's Catholics are as liberal as can be...

Most of the American Supreme Court are Catholics; someone likes to nominate Catholics for judges...

The Queen of England is leaning Catholic...

Most of Central and South America is Catholic...The Catholic religion is one of the largest in existance, as long as it continues to count the former members...

I'd say the Catholic religion is one of the most popular among governments, and the secular World...

[CTrent1564]

BlueDragon:

Well, again, 3 reputable Church Historians, all conclude that Peter died in Rome, Professors Chadwick, Prof. Pelikan and Prof Scaff. You continue to say that Scripture never states that Peter died in Rome. For the record, it did not say he did not die in Rome either.

So what we have is a constant tradition of the Church Fathers indicating that both Peter and Paul died in Rome and an Anglican Church History Professor [Chadwick], a German-Swiss Reformed Church History Professor in Scaff and a Lutheran [entered into the Eastern Orthdodox Church late in his life] in J. Pelikan.

So is it your contention that those 3 are all wrong and your conclusion about Peter is correct. And the links from CCL are there for you to read, I did not cherry pick anything. Scaffs footnotes cleary state that Peter and Paul were both killed in Rome. He is a German-Swiss Reformed CHurch History Scholar, perhaps the best known of the 19th century.

[CTrent1564]

BlueDragon:

Ok, maybe on that point, I did mix you up with someone else

[CynicalBear]

God Himself knows of “no other rock”! But the RCC does? Isn’t that interesting!

[CTrent1564]

boatbums:

I don’t know what Lampe is trying to disprove or what you are trying to communicate. The fact of a single Bishop in Rome did not take place until the later 2nd century does not disprove the Primacy of the Church of Rome and the Bishop. The fact that there may be several Bishops in Rome is nothing that detracts from the primacy. Even down to this day, many large cities have several Bishops and that was true in many instances in the early Church as well in some cities.

Collegiatality in the Church of Rome does not disprove the Primacy of the CHurch of Rome. You are trying to pit collegiality and Primacy against each other. Of course the Bishop of Rome seeks to collegial with his Brother Bishops. That is the reason that Councils in many instances [most] have been the means thru which doctrinal heresy was resolved. But at J. Pelikan noted in his work “The Christiant Tradition: Volume 1: The emergence of the Catholic Tradition 100AD to 600AD], The Bishop of Rome by his own authority could annul any synod/council (p.354).

And as for Vatican I and the Definition of Infallibility, I understand you have a problem with that Definition, but that does not chage the reality that the CHurch of Rome held a Primacy in the early Church.

[BlueDragon]

You continue to say that Scripture never states that Peter died in Rome.

YOU'VE GOT THE WRONG GUY

I told you that already. You are mixing up conversations here. Direct those comments to another.

[RnMomof7]

Nowhere does the Catechism say "alone" in that definition of saints, or the holy ones. It includes them among those called saints.

You break me up... LOL ...A Monsignor can not say how an angel gets to be a saint..but you have made one by silence

[CTrent1564]

BlueDragon:

ON what Defide Doctrines proclaimed at the highest level of dogmatic teaching has Rome reversed itself, Trinity, Incarnation, Christ passion, death, resurrection and ascension into heaven, sacraments, original sin and personal sin, Grace is what saves? Where has Rome reversed itself.

There is a hiearachy of Truths, those that are considered Divine Revelation that are unchangable Dogmatic Teachings don’t change. There are teachings that are prudential, based on the best information the Church has, that can change and are proposed to the faithful to be held, but those can be reformed, updated, modified. For example, for a long time the Catholic Church was against interest, given the nature of the economic system in an agriculture based economy. As economies became more sophisticated and we moved more into an industrial and business type economy, Interest/Usury was no longer forbidden.

I don’t see that as problematic and it is perfectly reasonable to change your teachings on economic morality to better fit the economics of the age we are in.

[RnMomof7]

Better than your following the words of Machen, eh?

No comment on this?

[RnMomof7]

Could you supply a link to that letter?
Sorry, I can't. You could contact the Web site's editor.

I read his letter and saw nothing on the assumption ..what was your source?

[CTrent1564]

BlueDragon:

Sorry about that, that was the other guy who has been pinging me.

[BlueDragon]

Economic morality> Nice dodge. How about papal supremacy itself? be honest.