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To: inthaihill
Hi, and thanks for the amicable way in which you presented the case for the apostle Junia.

I think it's interesting that the early Church --- amidst controversy, it's true --- did find slaves and gentiles qualified for ordained ministry, and this with Paul's strong leadership on the question. Note that in his letter to Philemon, Paul even hints --- in his very tactful and diplomatic way --that he would want the slave Onesimus to be freed so he could serve in the Church, as part of Paul's own ministry.

And yet while Paul calls the woman Junia an apostle, he also, elsewhere, expressed the contrasting view: that women are not to exercise authority over men in the Church.

Clearly Paul was not a man to shrink back from public opinion or cultural constraints when it came to slaves and gentiles. But sexual identity really is a different category. Slaves and freemen, Gentiles and Jews differ from each other in ways that really are socially changeable. But men and women differ from each other in ways that are in-built, and intended by the Creator: "male and female He created them."

This hints that, while men and women are equal, it might not be right to treat them as if they were interchangeable and identical.

There's more to be said on this on both sides, of course!

Incidentally, while I'm firmly convinced that women cannot be admitted to Holy Orders as ordained deacons, priests, and bishops, I see not reason why women should not serve in all non-ordained ministries, every (lay) level of leadership, including the top ones.

So maybe my thoughts are not relevant to the Presbyterian situation at all, since (as I understand it) you do not have "Holy Orders"--- priesthood--- as Catholics would understand the term.

Does that make sense?

16 posted on 12/13/2012 6:43:05 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you, may the Lord keep you, May He turn to you His countenance and give you peace)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Wonderfully written and with an obvious Christian spirit. As is often the case of many evangelicals and conservative Christians, I was taught that the Catholic church was . . . . (you can supply whatever bad word you want). As I matured in Christ and observed with mature eyes, I realized that the people are the church and not the building or the organization running the building. We all share the same salvation in Christ.

I now have a new found respect for the Catholic Church as an institution as it stands against many of the things so terribly wrong in America today. The murder of our most innocent humans and the secular approach to so many Important things in our society. The Catholic Church’s clear stand on abortion and clear stand against homosexuality brings joy to my heart as many a liberal church have fallen for the lies and deception of human secularism. Standing tall for Christianity when so many have thrown in the towel is inspiring.

As to Paul’s admonitions to the Corinthians about the place of women in the Christian society, many scholars believe that the women, having found true freedom in this new Christian society, were pushing the bounds of this freedom in such a way that was detrimental to the growth and well being of the church. The culture of the society in Corinth was metropolitan but most definitely a man’s world where women were either looked upon a chattel or at best second class citizens. To see these Christian women enjoying the same freedom as their male counterparts caused too many problems and probably made them some very powerful hostile enemies. Makes sense to me. Would Paul write the same to churches in a country like the US where women are equal in all respects? Who knows.

Thank you for your post, it did my heart good.


19 posted on 12/13/2012 7:04:57 AM PST by inthaihill (Living in an interesting paradise - Thailand!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; inthaihill
Incidentally, while I'm firmly convinced that women cannot be admitted to Holy Orders as ordained deacons, priests, and bishops, I see not reason why women should not serve in all non-ordained ministries, every (lay) level of leadership, including the top ones.

I agree

20 posted on 12/13/2012 7:12:35 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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