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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd

Okay, so if the Roman Catholic Church says that Protestant denominations that have a correct form of baptism, etc are now merely “separated brethren” and no longer “heretics” under Vatican II - so were they correct pre Vatican II or post Vatican II?

Did the RCC hear from God during the Inquisition(s)? If not, are they hearing from God now?

Don’t get me wrong, I am not Catholic bashing - this goes for all churches/denominations.


6 posted on 12/10/2012 9:40:23 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
if the Roman Catholic Church says that Protestant denominations that have a correct form of baptism, etc are now merely “separated brethren” and no longer “heretics” under Vatican II - so were they correct pre Vatican II or post Vatican II?

For that matter, it used to be a MORTAL SIN to receive Communion if you had eaten before. Then it went down to "an hour" before . . . then it went to you could have a McD Burrito on your breath while receiving Communion.

Then, it was a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sundays . . . then you could go to Mass on Saturday afternoons (especially good if you had an early Sunday t-time) . . . then . . .

Most Christian religions have become so secularized that they are NOT Christian anymore. The extremely lax attitude towards abortion (Thou Shall Not Kill) throughout Christianity has allowed people with "good" conscience to vote for someone like Obambastard who believes 100% in all abortions and the murder of "live" birth depending on the circumstances.

Seems like the only place of refuge for anyone who truly believe in Jesus Christ is a Bible-based, hell preaching, homosexuality condemning, Church . . . where ya' gonna' find that?

Catholic Church has caved in . . . Methodism can't quite find a firm opinion on the murder of 3,300 American babies DAILY (but they do fell strongly about gambling) . . . etc.

The only church I found that preaches what Jesus stands for is a little church in West Virginia called Left Fork Baptist Church where the preacher very loudly, and with a Bible in his hands, condemns everything that is kinda' OK in the pathetic suburban Christian churches. May God help us all!

19 posted on 12/10/2012 9:56:21 AM PST by laweeks
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; laweeks
I'm not a theologian, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. We Catholics have eternal non changing Doctrinal Laws and then we've got Canon Laws. Just because a nun, priest, or bishop said something does not mean it was official Church Doctrine. Canon laws change ALL the time and believe it or not from country to country. The Communion fast is an example of canon law.

We use separated brethren because it sounds nicer. We still believe Protestants are material heretics, although perhaps not formal ones, since they don't know any better. Incidentally, we Catholics believe they're all heretics - the Mormons, the Hindus, the Buddhists, etc. We believe we're the one True Church on Earth and if you don't believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, you're a material (although perhaps not formal) heretic. And if you're attending a church that you believe didn't get it right, then what the h-e-double toothpicks are you doing there?

As far as the Inquistion goes, human beings are not perfect and so we make and admit mistakes. But are Jews, Muslims, and Protestants heretics to us Catholics? Well, yeah, we just don't kill or torture them anymore.

43 posted on 12/10/2012 10:19:28 AM PST by old and tired
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Here's my Faith in a nutshell - the Nicene Creed

I believe in one God,the Father almighty,maker of heaven and earth,of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen

56 posted on 12/10/2012 10:38:00 AM PST by old and tired
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Post number 6 about catholicism to cover up the decline of protestatism in this thread. Odd that.

Really, it’s stunning. If you want a church that isn’t going to capitulate on this issue, you know where to go.


86 posted on 12/10/2012 11:59:17 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
"Okay, so if the Roman Catholic Church says that Protestant denominations that have a correct form of baptism, etc are now merely “separated brethren” and no longer “heretics” under Vatican II - so were they correct pre Vatican II or post Vatican II?"

As far as I know, heresy doesn't affect a valid baptism, as long as the person baptising (or getting baptised) doesn't have a heresy about baptism per se.

As far as I know, the Catholic Church never proclaimed heretics' baptisms to be invalid, with the exception of such groups as the Mormons, who do not believe in the Trinity (and therefore their baptism itself is not in the Trinity as we know it.) In other words, most Christian heretics have valid baptisms. But their errors are still errors.

For example: the followers of the Arian heresy (4th century). Tens of thousands of them, heretical as heck, but their baptisms per se were never in question.

If I am wrong about this, please, knowledgeable people jump in and correct me. :o)

So you don't have a contradiction here. You're making a category mistake.

"Did the RCC hear from God during the Inquisition(s)? If not, are they hearing from God now?

Again as far as I know, Church Inquisitions (like the Roman Inquisition) have authority only over those who are ecclesiastical subjects of the Catholic Church, and had power to impose only ecclesiastical penalities, e.g. excommunication. This is in contrast to State inquisitions (like the Spanish Inquisition), which impose criminal penalties (like fines, imprisonment, capital punishment.)

If somebody isn't an ecclesiastical subject of the Church (such as, say, a Hindu) they are not under the jurisdiction of a church inquisition. You, for instance: I assume you are not a Catholic, and therefore the Inquisition ain't comin' after you. So no need to worry about being excommunicated, no matter how heretical you are :o)

Again, if I am mistaken, somebody correct me please.

137 posted on 12/10/2012 3:02:45 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Kindness and Truth shall meet, Justice and Peace shall kiss." Psalm 85)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; Wyrd bið ful aræd
1. the Spanish inquisition was not against Protestants -- there were next to no Protestants in Spain, it didn't have any attraction for Spaniards who had spent 700 years fighting Islam
2. The S. inquisition was mainly directed against Crypto-Moslems. Remember that the last Moslem emirate was conquered only in 1490 and there were many Moriscos and Marannos (fresh converts). The fact was that most Moslems felt attached to the Moroccan Emirate and were a threat to the Spanish kingdom
3. Most non-Catholics are born into that denomination and sincerely belief. They can't be called heretics but separated brethren in Christ
4. Any non-Catholic denomination that baptises in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- we recognize that as a valid baptism. We don't recognize Mormon or Oneness Pentecostal baptisms for that reason
157 posted on 12/11/2012 2:55:17 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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