THE IMPOSSIBLE GOSPEL OF MORMONISM: PLAN OF SALVATION

Mormon Infographics ^ | November 27, 2012

[Cronos]

Just re-read the postings from the top and tery, NGtia as Catholics we shouldn't jump on a thread like this to say "....as do.." -- that's diverting from the entire conversation of the thread

I hate it when non-Catholic folks jump on to Mormon threads and change this to a traditional C v/s non-C bash.

we shouldn't be the ones who start the same thing.

I'm leaving Colofornian and elsie to talk about their issues with Mormonism -- on which we all agree on.

[Cronos]

boatbums: Is this really what you ... and you got...

now to quote you from another thread: Stop making this thread "about" another Freeper. discuss the Mormon plans for salvation and stick to the topic

[Elsie]

Evangelicals believe children are lost until they accept Christ.

We just figger that David knew what he was talking about in Psalm 51.

Sinners need a Savior.

THIS "E" thinks that kids have to have the ability to discern right from wrong and be able to understand the implications of it.

Merely saying that they 'accept' Christ could indicate a desire to please Mom and Dad - not GOD.

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"When I was a child...

[Elsie]

I hate it when non-Catholic folks jump on to Mormon threads and change this to a traditional C v/s non-C bash.

MORMONs???

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#14

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Standard LDS responses to data put to them:

 
 1. How you interpret it is wrong... 
 2. You are too ignorant to really understand it because you are not a member.... 
 3. You're not qualified to judge because you're no LONGER a member... 
 4. You are just a bigot for bringing the whole ugly truth to light ... 
 5. So’s yer Mama! 
 6. Laugh it all off and post some silly image. 
 7. Jump down the rabbit hole; Alice! 
 8. Bait & Switch 
 9. The OTHER 'half' of the truth is what we are avoiding.
10. "I Know It When I See It"
11. Hand waving... 
12. YOU play defense for a while. 
13. HEE Hee hee... let's get the Calvinists and the Armenians fighting!
14. GREAT FUN! Let's get the Catholics and the Protestants fighting!
15. Huh? Did you say something?
16. If I repeat this enough times some folks will be fooled into thinking it's true.
17. Playing dumb.
18. Refusing to answer because your ATTITUDE offends them.
19. (Let's see if they'll fall for the 'Defend a freak' ploy.)
20. And the MOST used... IGNORE what they posted and answer the question that SHOULD have been asked.

[Elsie]

I'm leaving Colofornian and elsie to talk about their issues with Mormonism -- on which we all agree on.

We 'agree' on ALL the important stuff!

(The MORMONs; not so much...

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

[greyfoxx39]

Quite frankly, why waste time talking about the Mormon plan of salvation?

Quite frankly, if you disagree with the topic of a thread I suggest you ignore it and start your OWN thread with a topic you deem worthwhile.

there is no point in discussing the philosophy of this false premise

Care to inform us of the qualification that you have enabling you to determine what subjects of discussion are worthwhile on FR?

[Cronos]

Care to inform us of the qualification that you have enabling you to determine what subjects of discussion are worthwhile on FR?

Absolutely none

I just pointed out that Mormonisms fundamentals are so utterly wrong and false you can just disprove the entire religion based on the provably false history it bases itself on

Look at it this way -- there were no Lamechs, ergo no Moroni ergo no "gold plates" and everything that J. Smith told was a con -- including his "philosophy of salvation"

it's like arguing a calculus theory where a person (the Mormons) has put the assumption 2+2=91 -- the higher levels don't matter as the fundamentals are so utterly wrong.

[greyfoxx39]

I just pointed out that Mormonisms fundamentals are so utterly wrong and false you can just disprove the entire religion based on the provably false history it bases itself on.

In that case, you shouldn't object that we are continuing to provide information to those innocents who actually may not know of the falseness...our posts are not aimed only at those who have drunk the koolaid, but at those who may wander in and find information that is new to them BEFORE they make a committment based on the sugar-coated lies told them.

[Cronos]

I don’t object to you saying what you want to say. I am just pointing out that to me the simplest thing to disprove Mormonism is just to say “the religion is based on a historically, archeologically and linguistically wrong premise — that Amerindians are Semitic. The fact that this utterly fundamental, foundation is false proves that the rest of their philosophy is based on a false foundation and not worthy of even looking at.”

[Godzilla]

I am just pointing out that to me the simplest thing to disprove Mormonism is just to say “the religion is based on a historically, archeologically and linguistically wrong premise — that Amerindians are Semitic. The fact that this utterly fundamental, foundation is false proves that the rest of their philosophy is based on a false foundation and not worthy of even looking at.”

Cronos - I dialogued with a lot of mormons and raise this point with them. Their stock answer is that God hides the evidence as a test of faith. Try it with them someday, it tends to overtighten your mainspring.

[greyfoxx39]

The fact that this utterly fundamental, foundation is false proves that the rest of their philosophy is based on a false foundation and not worthy of even looking at.”

The same could be said of catholicism by those who do not accept its tenets.

I'm not on the catholic threads when my belief is not RC posting off-topic declarations and assuming I am an authority on what should be included in those discussions.

I am just pointing out that to me the simplest thing...

I'm just pointing out that to me the simplest thing is to allow a thread to remain a discussion of the original topic.

[Natural Law]

"Again, you have taken a phrase out of my comment and run with it on a path it was not intended to take. It is irritating."

What I took was not just some random, throw away, out of context phrase, it was a foundational syllogistic premise statement upon which you attempted to build a higher truth. Unfortunately, it was not true and I am not willing to accept that premise nor the logical fallacy the acceptance of a false premise would lead to. The continued attempts for me to concede false statements as factual or presumed is what can be irritating.

Peace be with you.

[Cronos]

Their stock answer is that God hides the evidence as a test of faith. Try it with them someday, it tends to overtighten your mainspring.

you're kidding, that's unbelievable

By that standards, anything can be said -- that in 1845 Abraham Lincoln underwent plastic surgery as he was originally Chinese

wowzer - I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Godzilla]

you're kidding, that's unbelievable

I wish I was kidding. True believing mormons (TBM) fall back on that defense about as quickly as they fall back to reciting their testimony when cornered. Now, it is not useless - many exmormons point to their eyes being opened by the abysmal absence of bom proofs, among other things, as what started their path out of mormonism. So it does serve a purpose for the lurker and those questioning their faith and I use it. But man oh man do they make big excuses - particularly the TBMs.

[Natural Law]

"Well, Jesus Christ Himself said that one must believe, but one must also be baptised, repent, endure to the end etc. — it’s “and”, “and”, “and”"

The interesting question begged by the continued attacks on Catholicism, Mormonism and many other denominations and belief systems is this; is it better to believe with significant errors, than to not believe at all?

I ask because we are all errant to one degree or another. As we each go through our conversion and faith formation process we learn things we did not know and make discoveries, large and small, that change our beliefs. If we are to presume that believing in God, but holding errors, is an obstacle to Salvation then the presumption that anyone of us is saved means that we are asserting that we already know everything there is to know, which is impossible.

Peace be with you

[Elsie]

I just pointed out that Mormonisms fundamentals are so utterly wrong and false you can just disprove the entire religion based on the provably false history it bases itself on

But, but, but!

What about our SCRIPTURE???

--MormonDude(It's right here in black and white - all we have to do is DIG it out of the ground!!!)

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MORMON

Chapter 6

The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. About A.D. 385.

1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

3 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired. 

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

5 And *when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.

9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.

10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

11And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.

16 And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:

17 O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!

18 Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss.

19 O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen!

20 But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return.

21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.

22 O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy.

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Mormon 8:2
And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

[Elsie]

...many exmormons point to their eyes being opened by the abysmal absence of bom proofs, among other things...

HMMmm...

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The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story. No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

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Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

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*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

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Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

     .
 

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What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

[Natural Law]

"all say that you must believe the beliefs in the Nicene Creed."

The genuine translation of "Credo" is not "I believe" it is "I trust". It is not a statement of belief, it is a statement of faith.

It is notable that the Creeds do not recite the teachings of Jesus, but rather affirm who He is and the role of the Church. One cannot be Christian and reject the Creeds.

Peace be with you.

[boatbums]

As per your SOP, you have missed the point entirely. Until you drop the snarky sarcasm, you can debate yourself.

[PeevedPatriot]

these are not different theological brands. They have to believe the dogmas of the faith, or they are not Catholic

Yes. But I understand where colofornian is coming from. Those aspects we hold in common (doctrine, sacraments, liturgy, magisterial authority, etc) aren't what's visible to the nonCatholic eye. I understand why some can view it as diversity.

if the Orders were COMPLETELY on the same page, then their distinctions and uniqueness would be superflous and redundant

Not at all. Orders reflect unique charisms and apostolates in the service of spreading the gospel message under the authority of the Catholic Church. Different local authority structures may exist (abbot or bishop for example) or they may report directly to the Holy See. Either way they ultimately come under the authority of the Pope.

What is indeed diverse is the various gifts of the Holy Spirit and the way various orders live out these gifts in ministering Christ to others. Some orders may specifically serve the poor. Some do health care. Others teach. But apart from their living out of these gifts, they are the same. For example, I sometimes attend Mass celebrated by Dominican fathers. It is structured the same as the Mass my parish priest (who doesn't belong to an order) celebrates. Confession with a Dominican or my priest is the same. Our beliefs and practices are the same. The difference is my parish priest isn't an itinerant preacher. The Dominican is. My parish priest reports directly to the bishop. The Dominican has an abbot in authority over him. Both ultimately are under the Pope's authority in the end. Hopefully that made sense.

Peace be with you.