The Vatican on Gaza: Israel is a Baby-Killer”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162368#.UK1RQ4arqSo ^ | 11/21/2012 | Giulio Meotti

[Lera]

Not a word was heard from the Vatican all the years Sderot babies were in mortal danger. They began noticing the violence last week.


Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, President of the Vatican Council for Culture, commenting on the war between Israel and Hamas, delivered a severe attack on the Jewish people: “I think of the ‘massacre of the innocents’. Children are dying in Gaza, their mothers’ shouts is a perennial cry, a universal cry”.


The Catholic Church high official equated Israel’s operation in Gaza against terror groups with the New Testament story of Herod’s slaughter of Jewish babies in his effort to kill Jesus.

[Cronos]

It shows the spirit that leads some people is not in the Spirit of anything of Christ -- exactly. More like some dancing-jerking demonic spirit that leads them to grasp anything that attacks Christianity

[Cronos]

"In his remarks the Cardinal mentioned a cycle of violence in the middle east dating back thousands of years and cited Herrod's killing of the innocent among several examples."

Lera: "King Herod the Arab that ordered the execution of all Jewish babies" -- so now are you saying that the Cardinal is making pro-Israel statements about Hamas killing Israeli babies?

Or are you on to the Jesuits (laugh -- this was one of your many flubs) teaching ole Iosef?

[Cronos]

I was rather livid upon passing over the headline. -- as the author wanted us to be -- RF, bayou - note that this is the second Arutz Sheva article I've seen in 3 months posted on FR that has such incredible distortions, actually saying someone said something they didn't (again Christianity related), that from now on I believe it better to classify anything they say on Christian matters in the same category as ABC reporting on the GOP.

I have no idea why they want to do this, seems counter-productive to me, but I am not going to bunch or blame all Israelis (leave alone all Jews) for the idiocy of one newspaper.

[Natural Law]

"...saying something equally outrageous and unfair as this."

If you think a comparison of the pain of a Palestinian mother to the pain felt by the mother's of the infants killed by Herod is not universal and is outrageous and unfair you do not understand love. That explains a lot.

[Cronos]

bb, nice point brought up by pp

bb: I am not "anti-Catholic".

PP: I'm reminded of an article you recommended to me on another thread. I still remember the first line: "In order to be a good Protestant, you must be a good anti-Catholic."

So, bb, are you as the article you posted says "a good Protestant"?

oh and to late comers who've read the inflamatory title of this article, note what Natural law pointed out again that The only problem is that this never happened! Cardinal Ravisi never said it.
quote a militantly anti-Catholic article misquoting the Cardinal's introduction to Pope Benedict's third volume on Jesus of Nazareth.
In his remarks the Cardinal mentioned a cycle of violence in the middle east dating back thousands of years and cited Herrod's killing of the innocent among several examples.

[Cronos]

BlueDragon: The article was a hit piece. Don't believe it. Distortions for the most part (when not outright fabrication from the thinnest of element) carefully blended to inflict maximum damage on everyone except Hamas, -- BD, my esteeem for you rises to see that.

I note that this is the second article from Arutz posted here on FR which does the same thing

I have no idea why they would want to keep doing that.

[Cronos]

The thread is an example of how people like the authors will say lies and then say they are not anti-Christian. As I pointed out in your post.

[Cronos]

1. The Cardinal was talking about a book
2. he says of the entire conflict in the ME as being cyclical since millenia
3. he says that the wail of mothers is perennial -- innocents being killed. And note that this no where says Israel. Lets face it - innocent babies are killed on both side by Hamas -- Hamas who started this and hide among babies and keep firing even after a ceasefire is declared

[Cronos]

NL, I’m sorry, that was an error to club all non-Catholics together — folks like RFE etc are actually bothering to check, so they can’t be clubbed with the others (who might not even be Christians...leave alone non-Catholics)

[Cronos]

remember that it would be so easy to quote from the lies in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and then say "If you want to dispute the points of the article, dispute them with the author. But do let us know how you make out."

this remnantofgod is another piece of satanic lies like this article and the Protocols

[boatbums]

Didn’t and don’t. Nice try. No cigar.

[BlueDragon]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2961979/posts?q=1&;page=104#104

I did check the link you gave. The information;

"The deaths of children in Gaza during the conflict between Israel and Hamas in recent days dramatically reproduce the topicality 'of the biblical episode of the massacre of the innocents"

From the source for Ravasi's broader intended meaning [above supplied link], the source for it having been run through google translate from Italian to English is found;

So, just as an example, the relationship between faith and politics is taken in his two respects: “Sometimes, in the course of history, the powerful of this world attracts to itself the kingdom of God, but just then it is in danger: they want to connect their power with the power of Jesus, and because of that deformed his kingdom, threaten him. Or it is subject to the persistent persecution by rulers who do not tolerate any kingdom and want to remove the king without power, whose mysterious power, however, they fear." Or, here is the application of the tragedy of the children killed by Herod on which rests the maternal lamentation of Rachel Bible: “In our current historical epoch is the cry of mothers towards God, but at the same time the resurrection of Jesus strengthens us in the hope of real comfort."

Seen as such (from it's wider context), it's not exactly equating Israeli Jews alone (and we who support them?), today, as an Herod archetype, but is seen in my own eyes, more in regards to how we on earth resist Christ, more generally, as the results of such grasps for "power" play out in the world today.

Extending the historical context of "power" which Ravasi mentions Ratzinger speaking towards, it is not "the Israeli's" who are the sole "bad king" when there are the baby kings of Gaza (Hamas), the Islamic wanna-be kings of Iran, and Morsi of Egypt who has just recently declared his own edicts & proclamation to be incontrovertible ---thus making and declaring himself to be, by default, de facto king of Egypt.

Now I realize that the Catholics I am here hoping to in some way defend did not put it in the words I myself have, in the above paragraphs. Yet I do think they would very much allow their 'thought' or idea to be thus fairly extended --- IF they were not so worried that doing so in other than most diplomatic terms wouldn't just feed the fire. We saw what happened when Benedict XVI spoke esoterically, including a quote from Emperor Manuel II Paleologos

”show me just what Mohammed brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

Muzzie heads exploded (of course!) and some people diED because of it. A real touchy bunch, them Jihadi's...any excuse, and they'll show us just how peaceful Islam can be, if they have to kill somebody to prove it! With such as that in mind, Ratzinger minds his manners, and attempts to have himself better understood by bringing the force of his own scholarship to bear.

Further, the remarks [being discussed] themselves were made (we must assume) with the Cardinal having himself been familiar with Ratzinger's work(s), being as those remarks were made in regards to an introduction of sorts towards this latest book, so themselves were in context of the themes spoken of therein.

In fact, nobody wants to even admit the Cardinal said a thing about anything.

See the above link, and consider my own understandings (if my writing be not so dense as to be indecipherable, hoo-boy!) for better understanding of what he most likely actually meant, rather than how the hit-piece applied them out-of-context, thus distorting them?

The Cardinal’s words should be condemned. You’re not going to do it. That much is obvious.

I cannot in good conscience go along with how Giulio Meotti employed certain "cherry-picked" comments in new context of his own, linking separate things/statements (most, again, completely out of their primary context).

If Rachel is again weeping for innocent children slain in symbolic "Ramallah", it IS due much to power struggles. Which power struggles may not be of such ferocity if they were to be tempered by acknowledgement & acceptance of "the historical Jesus", of that time & place when He walked the earth, and what they mean by that "historical setting", with all of those inherent meanings (as discussed in the latest Ratzinger tome, no doubt) whom Ratzinger, and Ravasi in reference to, can be seen to speak about. Those whom disagree with "Jesus" being a tonic, for whichever reason, could still do well to consider more fully where these particular Christians today, (who's statements have been combined in the article, for effect) may otherwise, more overall be "coming from".

Speaking of which, we can see that the Vicar General of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, corrected himself in this article dated Oct. 16 Bishop Shomali clarifies negative statements about Israeli education

On page 3 there is a link to pdf file; Examination of Israeli textbooks in elementary schools of the State educational system.
In the dealing with social & moral responsibility towards others, with the examiners putting it as "not limited to the people of Israel" referenced is the book of Jonah, from which they derive example. Taking some liberty here I will bring some text from Jonah; the last verse, 4:11

And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Admittedly, one big problem with the above as possibly applied to Gaza, though it does reveal a portion of the Lord's true mind towards sinful peoples (which is where the Catholics in question are coming from in regards to "slaughter of innocents" I gather...) is if there has been a prophet sent to them, or not.

What many otherwise get strong impression towards, is the shelf-life of "moderate" Muslims in Gaza, is either rather limited, and if not that, then quite precarious in it's continued existence. Overall the people there were given a choice of vote between Hamas, and the Palestinian Authority (Arafat's corrupt crew). Who would a "moderate" vote for there? He might be better off just keeping his mouth SHUT and his head down.
We do not know for a certainty how many there in Gaza are sick of the whole Hamas-hate, evil song & dance, but not all of them were recently out in the streets dancing that phony victory jig. Now to how many true prophets sent to them, they may have previously slain, I have no idea. Only the Lord knows precisely that. Weeping and wailing, I'm otherwise thinking, will undoubtedly come again to Gaza, in a very real way...

Please bear in mind all of this is not coming from some FRoman Catholic knee-jerk defender, for I much (and frequently) contend against our FRoman friends over matters of most generally, longstanding disagreement. Some of these same I contend with go so far as to imply myself being guilty of some of the worst heresies, and even that one, "unforgivable" blasphemy. Yet here I am, standing with them in this regard. I do not do so hastily, or carelessly.

At risk of over-doing things (but we are on the religion forum, after all, hey!)

Zechariah 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Isaiah 51:1Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness,
Who seek the Lord:
Look to the rock from which you were hewn
And to the [a]quarry from which you were dug.
2 “Look to Abraham your father
And to Sarah who gave birth to you in pain;
When he was but one I called him,
Then I blessed him and multiplied him.
” 3 Indeed, the Lord will comfort Zion;
He will comfort all her waste places.
And her wilderness He will make like Eden,
And her desert like the garden of the Lord;
Joy and gladness will be found in her,
Thanksgiving and sound of a melody.

1 Peter

6 Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

7 For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner;

8 and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

1 Corinthians 1:20-23 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

[boatbums]

Please stop distorting what I say and coming to false and dishonest conclusions. I don’t treat you that way so why do you do it to me? In case you don’t bother going back to my post, here’s my point. I wouldn’t care if an Evangelical leader said the SAME thing as this Cardinal - it would STILL be wrong and I would have no qualms saying so.

[Natural Law]

"I note that this is the second article from Arutz posted here on FR which does the same thing."

One wonders if the those trumpeting this article knew anything about Arutz Sheva and its founding editor Hillel Fendel and what he really thinks of all Christians including Protestants would they still crawl into bed with him.

[Cronos]

bb: *whine* Please stop distorting what I say and coming to false and dishonest conclusions*whine*

of course not, we're not the authors of this article

and it's hard to distort when you say the supposed "leaders", who, it seems, are in league with the terrorists or pass links about "being a good P is to be a good anti-Catholic"...

[Cronos]

"one wonders if those trumpeting this article knew anything about Arutz Sheva"

I just note this by Hillel http://roshpinaproject.com/2009/11/12/hillel-fendel-and-yad-lachim-fabricate-false-missionary-story/

[boatbums]

I'm not going to be your plaything for tonight's entertainment.

ALSO FOR "LATECOMERS": read the posts that speak about what this Cardinal actually said and not the diverson some here want you to take. Nobody quoted the Cardinal as saying, "Israel is a 'baby-killer'". Instead what he DID say is:

"I think - said the cardinal - the cry of the mothers in the massacre of the innocents, and that 'a cry perennial, perpetual and' a universal cry that still resonates today. ... Children die in Gaza and the cries of the mothers' continual cry. You see, the story is not 'finished', in that historical context." http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://it.notizie.yahoo.com/papa-card-ravasi-grido-strage-innocenti-risuona-vittime-150800913.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgrido__strage_innocenti__risuona_in_vittime_Gaza%26hl%3Den%26tbo%3Dd%26biw%3D1107%26bih%3D490&sa=X&ei=G-iuUJaZN4369gSXjoGwAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQ7gEwAA

I find it curious that the Cardinal made NO mention of the dead children and crying mothers in Israel. What could be the reason for that? This statement in the OP article was accompanied by additional anti-semitic actions and statements from a few Eastern Orthodox leaders. My feeling is that it doesn't matter what religion the person represents. If what they say is blatantly unfair against Israel, I reject it as would ANY genuine Christian.

[Natural Law]

"I find it curious that the Cardinal made NO mention of the dead children and crying mothers in Israel. What could be the reason for that?"

Cardinal Ravisi was making a statement about a book about the life of Jesus. In his remarks he mentioned the world into which Jesus was born and that those human conditions are still present and His message is still relevant. He was not making a political speech and frankly, to suggest that he should have tip-toed through every aggrieved demographic or risk ridicule and condemnation from those who already hate him is ridiculous. Had he not mentioned the Gaza at all I'm sure you would have found reason to "criticize" just the same. He failed to mention Catholic children killed when their Churches are bombed in Nigeria, he failed to mention children killed by narco-terrorists in Mexico and central America. He failed to mention those killed in the Sudan He failed to mention the millions killed in abortions every year, he failed to mention children killed in wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan at the hands of Jihadists and Americans, and the victims of human trafficking in Southeast Asia and in this country. He even failed to mention that the Jews still mourn the deaths of the first born of the Egyptians in every Passover. Do you think all of these slights mean both he and the Church hate all and blame all?

[boatbums]

Do you think all of these slights mean both he and the Church hate all and blame all?

Oh, please! Can you say why the Cardinal mentioned Gaza at all in his speech? If it was in reference to the deaths of innocent children due to the recent fighting, then he made a serious error of omission. He SHOULD have known that only mentioning those in Gaza and not the equally innocent lives in Israel demonstrates a bias which would have consequences and if he didn't get that, he has no business being the head of "culture". How he forgot the hot button issue of the day, either means he has no equitable concern for the Jews in Israel or he is too stupid for the job. Take your pick. He was wrong and he would be wrong no matter what religious system he came from. I'm signing off for now. Have a peaceful night.

[Natural Law]

"Can you say why the Cardinal mentioned Gaza at all in his speech?"

No, but apparently you and a half a dozen others claim to know.

What sickens my heart the most is the shameless defense of an entirely shameful assertion.